If you play a note with the sustain pedal up, and then press the pedal (while still holding the note), does it switch to the pedal down samples? Does it work the other way round? The previous Synchron pianos can't do this, but the old Vienna Imperial can (using the 2SUS button). With the Synchron pianos you can have an unrealistic mix of up and down samples on different notes at the same time.
Johnstaf No, both still don't work. That's another reason why I'm not considering buying it. But maybe there will be an update at some point.
pc-king Secondly, I'd be interested to know whether the problem with the notes being too loud still persists when the sustain pedal is pressed: A note with, for example, vel. 30 inside the sustain pedal is much louder on synchron steinway than a note with a vel. 30 outside the pedal. For example, in a MIDI file of Chopin's first ballad, you get a massive accent on the second accompanying chord in bars 9 to 21.
At least they did it right this time.
BTW, the reason why notes with the damper pedal are louder might be because they used the robotized hand to play notes. However, with the damper pedal pressed, the keys become lighter and are easier to accelerate faster with the same force. That’s why I have been criticizing the damper weights in the Novus instruments, they add realism but it’s an artifact on real pianos that is not useful and doesn’t need replication.
CyberGene Yes, I've written that several times. For years.
CyberGene BTW, the reason why notes with the damper pedal are louder might be because they used the robotized hand to play notes
that was a problem with early synchron pianos such as their cfx, concert d and of course (the final boss) bosendorfer imperial, in fact their imperial was so bad in that regard i had to avoid buying it despite the fact that i liked how it sounds, but it's not present in their newer stuff, the 280vc didn't have that problem at all, and after that, the f308 and f212, i haven't checked the d 1887 yet but i'm sure that's not the case with it.
CyberGene but it’s an artifact on real pianos that is not useful and doesn’t need replication.
that's a problem i have with certain people's mindset as if we need every single aspect of a real instrument no matter how useless or even annoying it is, i mean digital/digitized instruments are a thing of their own, they don't need to be an exact copy of the actual thing, especially when it comes to useless artifacts.
pianow that was a problem with early synchron pianos such as their cfx,
I wouldn't consider that a problem with the CFX, that one is also not sampled with the robot hand but with the built in Disklavier system. On the other hand if you think of it it's kind of a natural behavior since if you play two notes on an acoustic piano, one with pedal and one without, the note with pedal will be louder so if the volume on a VI is the same than that would be the unnatural behavior.
johanibraaten No, if I press a note on the sustain pedal at the same speed on a real grand piano, it will also be just as loud. The sound will just be a bit fuller because the other strings are vibrating along with it. However, with the same force (same velocity value), the robot finger reaches a higher top speed because the damper doesn't have to be lifted and the key moves more smoothly. This seems to have finally been taken into account. In the editor, set one note at vel. 15 without the pedal and one at vel. 15 with the pedal in Synchron Steinway. The sound in the pedal will be much louder. The result isn't realistic, because I pressed both keys at the same speed while playing.
pc-king No, if I press a note on the sustain pedal at the same speed on a real grand piano, it will also be just as loud.
Yes but you need more force to achieve the same speed with no pedal in an action with a damper mechanism. It might be a problem in VSL 274 though, I don't know. I can also see it being a problem when rendering midi files.
johanibraaten A professional pianist can intuitively play two notes of equal volume, one with the pedal and one without. He automatically reduce the force slightly with the pedal, achieving the same top speed. The velocity value must represent the top speed of the key or hammer, not the force. F = ma
pc-king A professional pianist can intuitively play two notes of equal volume, one with the pedal and one without. He automatically reduce the force slightly with the pedal, achieving the same top speed. The velocity value must represent the top speed of the key or hammer, not the force.
That's what I mean, if you're used to an acoustic piano you automatically reduces the force when play with pedal if equal volume is desired. So to mimic that behavior on a DP it should be made so you need less force to reach a certain volume when you press the pedal. It could be a problem though in situations described by @Johnstaf if you have different samples for pedal upp and down, if you play a note without a pedal and then hold it and press the pedal then the note might have an unnatural rise in volume. This is a problem in the first generation Avantgrands.
johanibraaten No, because with the N1, for example, I don't have any influence from the pedal. I play with the same force on the pedal, and of course, I don't want it to be any louder.
In other words, if the velocity values are the same, it's because I pressed the keys at the same speed, meaning with less force on the pedal (on a real grand piano) or with the same force (on a digital piano). So, with a virtual instrument, I expect these notes to be the same volume either way.
Interesting, but it still seems a bit much, and for some perspective, VI-Labs is nowhere near 60 layers (never mind 100), yet some people swear by that MD, so it begs the question, should VSL spend more time on programming/modeling and less on recording a bunch of samples?
Hint: a little sampling + modeling goes a long way, is less taxing on resources, and some might argue that it allows for more realistic resonances….IMHO!
Pressing a key on any piano is not exactly equivalent to fixed “force” because movement is involved, as well as tactile feedback from the inertia and static weight and what we intuitively try to achieve is a target key acceleration, instead of target force. Thus, on an acoustic piano, when you press the damper pedal, the keys become lighter and easier to accelerate and you can intuitively press them with a lighter force to accelerate them with the desired acceleration (rather than desired terminal velocity, because often you might not even press all the way down, only keep the momentum do the rest).
However, in the world of MIDI controllers where you have no dampers and no varying key weight, you will always press with the same target acceleration and if the underlying samples have different audio volume, that’s a problem. The Novus is a special case and I think no current virtual piano would make up for the fact it has varying key weight. Ideally, there would be a parameter which, when enabled, will produce slightly louder sounds when damper pedal is pressed.
Pete14 Hmm, you can easily distinguish between the different recordings by setting the gain response to maximum everywhere (0-127). I think, it's never 60. More like 10. Even less in the higher registers.
CyberGene Ideally, there would be a parameter which, when enabled, will produce slightly louder sounds when damper pedal is pressed.
I swear that sometimes it “feels” like Yamaha is doing something to this extent, but I can’t say for sure…..
The problem of too loud notes in the pedal also occurs with the Synchron CFX, which was recorded with the internal playing system. Apparently, the Yamaha people forgot about it, too. That's what happens when professional pianists aren't involved in the recording process. (Sorry, Mendl...)
CyberGene However, in the world of MIDI controllers where you have no dampers and no varying key weight, you will always press with the same target acceleration and if the underlying samples have different audio volume, that’s a problem.
If the difference is big I agree it's a problem but a slight difference might perhaps feel natural for someone that plays most of the time on acoustics.
pc-king No, because with the N1, for example, I don't have any influence from the pedal. I play with the same force on the pedal, and of course, I don't want it to be any louder.
This is of course subjective but I think this is a reason why the pedal samples on the N1 are louder than the ones without (I have the N1 too). Try to play this chord with the internal sound on the N1 with no pedal and then hold it while you press the pedal.
