Upright piano speaker simulator addon idea

Pete14 I know that some believe that a ‘soundboard’ for a digital is a gimmick, and that speakers alone can do the job, but I humbly disagree, once again, from a layman’s perspective.

I can neither agree nor disagree. I've heard virtual instruments played through various speakers that were good, bad, or in between. But I've never heard one played through a soundboard.

Yes, I've heard the Kawai CA- series pianos, which play through a combination of speakers and soundboard ... but the samples in those pianos are not top notch. And I did not notice any mode setting for "soundboard only".

So who's to say that a virtual instrument with only a soundboard will produce acceptable results?
And who would think it would be acceptable when driven by Pianoteq?

Pete14

We’ve been waiting on Kawai to do this

Kawai Aures is doing exactly that. No speakers, just a soundboard with some transducers:

Soundboard Speaker System with 4 transducers (Low-Mid Range × 2, High Range × 2)

Yes, that’s true, but I’m hoping for ‘pure digital’ with a soundboard and no speakers (NV-20).

The Trans/Aures comes attached to a full acoustic, strings and all, and I don’t want to pay for all that stuff. Now, I do understand how for those wanting to have the silent capability for late-night practice whilst also having a full acoustic for ‘the day’ something like the Trans-Aures would be appealing.

MHirsch Kawai Aures is doing exactly that.

Yes, you are correct: I was forgetting the Aures line... And for some reason I don't think that Kawai is using different samples in those transducers. So maybe a soundboard is truly a good medium for full-range transmission. Like I said, this was unsubstantiated bias...

So that was why I was trying to distinguish between the sound projection (unlike a cone speaker) and the timbre. I tried a Yamaha transacoustic once, and wasn't impressed by the timbre that the speaker put out, but did like the way it projected like a piano soundboard (as it was using the piano soundboard).

With fine tuning, I might be able to achieve something like this:

But still, I don't feel the sound is good enough. But possibly a "hybrid" using the piano soundboard and some separate tweeters and a subwoofer placed in the correct places. Maybe. Or just the foam substrates instead. Dunno yet.

Pete14

But Pete, what makes you think it’ll be a lot cheaper? NV10s, a pretty much acoustic instrument without strings and all, is already at the same price level as a K300 with an Aures system. To me, where’s no point in buying an almost acoustic piano but not really acoustic, and not really cheaper.

The only reason to even look at NV10s for me was the action - but its sound was let’s say less convincing than the sound of a K300 (no Aures) standing next to it. K300 is 3.3k € cheaper, by the way.

vagfilm

Well, I played a K500 Aures.

It’s acoustic sound, compared to the digital, was a whole lot better - natural, powerful but still mellow. Digital sounded like there’s a much bigger piano inside, trying to get out. I was not impressed like at all.

That’s been a year ago, things might have changed with Aures2, but there’ll be Aures3 - better, more natural and authentic, <marketing stuff>. And then what, an endless upgrade loop?

MHirsch Digital sounded like there’s a much bigger piano inside, trying to get out

It seems like a better job could be done with speaker placement/quality/calibration/etc.. with these ‘upright’ type hybrids, and yes, you are correct, they are overpriced.

Perhaps the prices won’t come down much, but at least I expect future upgrades to improve on the known weaknesses (starting with the speakers, etc.).

I have never been impressed by soundboards in digital pianos, the kawai NV5 sounds a little bit better than a Kawai NV10, but still, we are talking about a sound which is light years away from a real acoustic piano with vibrating strings. And using a better vst wouldn't improve things, the result you get will be always a boxy sound.

“Light years”… why the pessimism, Pianissimo?

We’re but a decade away from transformational improvements (the digital overtakes the acoustic).

These ‘string vibrations’ you talk about are way overrated, and if anything, easily replicated and simulated without the need for strings.

Yes, I agree, we’re still a little ‘boxed in’, but give us a decade and we will blow your mind and ears away (figuratively).

We have to admit that it is of essence for the acoustic piano industry to start moving out of the analog age and into the digital future, or they will become extinct.

“Adapt to your changing environment or disappear”, said Darwin, so you see, I’m not making things up.

We all know in the near future all will be wireless, virtual, and stringless, and there’s just no room for hand-made romanticism.

P.S.

Remember how just a few years ago a device like an iPhone was considered impossible?, “a computer in your pocket? You, sir, must be crazy”; well, here we are, and the iPhone14 is now a reality.

Pete14

I am not pessimistic, just realistic, I would be delighted to be surprised. But so far I think a nice big speaker will sound better without any soundboard help or any transducer.

dore_m So that was why I was trying to distinguish between the sound projection (unlike a cone speaker) and the timbre. I tried a Yamaha transacoustic once, and wasn't impressed by the timbre that the speaker put out,

Just an observation: if its a certain timbre you seek, until they synthesize drivers that speak organically by way real wood, timber may be requisite for any little “piano engine that could” …..but what do i know ? 🙂

Had the time to try two different thicknesses of that pink/purple insulation (1" and 0.5") both in 150 compression strength. I drove them with Dayton Audio DAEX25Q-4 Quad Feet 25mm Exciter 20W 4 Ohm

I confirm what everyone else said and I add only the following three points:

1. The soundstage is incredible, absolutely astonishing (with the right recording). A random (but good) CD of a Teresa Milanollo compositions made a violin player literally materialize in front of me. Other recordings with more reverb, probably mic'ed from a distance, made me think I was in a cathedral. Never experienced anything like that with speakers, definitely feels like "being there". My wife, who is usually totally numb to my audio experimentation, looked at me in awe when I forced her to go in that room and have a listen. Pianoteq blues demo also made the piano materialize just behind the panels, I felt I could touch it.
2. At least with the exciters I used, the dynamic range is somewhat limited compared to regular good speakers (I have floorstanding Polk Audio ones, mid-bottom of the line, good but nothing super fancy). Not that you cannot "pump" high volumes, but the sound becomes excessively distorted at the risk of buzzing when the moving membrane is hitting the end of the travel
3. There is not a huge difference between the 1" and .5" panel thickness. I personally find the thinner a bit more loud and a bit more clear. Family member where split 50/50 on which was best, but the difference is certainly minor.
4. Because of 2. it's important that whatever material you pick you get the most volume possible, because "cranking up" does not work. Of all the materials I tried (everything I had lying around the house and the garage that I could attach the exciter and hang) the pink insulation was best. I was expecting decent results from drywall, and it was ok, but definitely too quiet to make it worth the hassle with its friablity and weight.

I am now waiting for a quote from the company I mentioned earlier to try the 400 or 600 and the 1000 compression strengths (price permitting).

I plan to put the best among these options in my DIY hybrid piano.

Cool! I ordered my Dayton Audio drivers last month thinking that I would receive them in February - I was planning early. But I have received all of them now and did run a few experiments. I also had a 50+ inch long cardboard box, so i tried as well as the PS foam. (2foot square). I did notice that in my horizontal orientation (my intended orientation) that you need some space on the bottom side to create more bass. It's going to take some effort to optimize. I want to try the ceiling tiles (4foot x 2foot) and see if I can get a decent piano stereo image with two exciters. That is about as far as I've taken it - had to clean up the living room because family is coming over soon. Project is going on the backburner for now.

Hey @RIP I saw this video today. Wondering what you thought about the addition of different materials. Let me know if you try it, and I'll do the same (even though this is on the backburner for me)

listening to this comparison I prefer the Klipsch compared to the panels.

dore_m Wondering what you thought about the addition of different materials.

I tried a few materials, the main issue is that the more the material weights, the less the drivers are able to move them enough, so everything is very, very quiet (often less than a whisper). The more mass you add, the worse this would be, and that is confirmed with my experiments. Everything else, is just a mechanical way of doing frequency equalization, which in my opinion could be more easily done in software, as long as the final "speaker" is not horrible with huge resonances or response gaps.

So my todo list on this is to try the larger piece of insulation which would fit my DIY hybrid (I've already cut it, have to find the time to do all the rest) and insulation panels with different compression strengths. The supplier I contacted told me they were going to send me and estimate for such panels, but never did (perhaps after the holidays?) -- I don't see strong reasons to experiment otherwise, and have to carefully budget my spare time.

Pianissimo listening to this comparison I prefer the Klipsch compared to the panels.

You may like the "tone" (i.e. frequency response) of the Klipsch better, but I'm 200% (sic) convinced that if you listen to these in person you would like them better for the soundstage. As I said above, you can adjust the frequency equalization by other means, but you cannot create the soundstage that even one of these speakers provide, unless you use a huge number of speakers, as they do in movie theaters. Let me quote my previous post:

RIP The soundstage is incredible, absolutely astonishing (with the right recording). A random (but good) CD of a Teresa Milanollo compositions made a violin player literally materialize in front of me. Other recordings with more reverb, probably mic'ed from a distance, made me think I was in a cathedral. Never experienced anything like that with speakers, definitely feels like "being there". My wife, who is usually totally numb to my audio experimentation, looked at me in awe when I forced her to go in that room and have a listen. Pianoteq blues demo also made the piano materialize just behind the panels, I felt I could touch it.

The previous quote is not bragging, it is really "an experience". Given how cheap it is to experiment with these, I suggest to anybody who has an even slight curiosity and a possible location to place the built speaker(s) to build one or two.

Ok, so I tried these in the context of a hybrid piano with a grand action and the short upright form factor. The one most of you have probably already seen here: https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/170-build-your-own-hybrid-piano-step-two-the-cabinet

Because of the geometry, the size of the "soundboard" was forced to be a spinet-like configuration.

The results have been disappointing in this application. I did not like the class-D amplifiers I tried, but I could have probably lived with them (or use a conventional class AB). What was different this time is that I was forced to use smaller panels because I needed to have them fit the available space in the instrument. There were three panels, two could be at most 20"'x16" (which on paper looked not much smaller than 24"x24" and better per the manufacturer recommendation to use rectangles rather than square); the other could be 4'x1' which I thought could give it more bass which was (somewhat) lacking on the 2'x2'.

Long story short: if you are constrained by dimensions similar to these, forget it. It works, it's decent, but any non-crap Bluetooth speaker will outperform this setup. The most disappointing aspects are:

• even more distortion and clipping problems
• not enough bass, despite the 4' dimension which on paper should allow lower frequencies than the 2' (not half because you have the diagonal, but still lower)
• because of smaller total area, obviously lower volume levels (insufficient for a digital piano, and I never went more than 10 or 11 am on the volume settings on any digital piano I owned, just so you understand you are not talking with one who wants the digital have the same volume of a concert grand)
• that lower volume level (compared to the 2' panels) was so even when utilizing more powerful Dayton Audio DAEX32QMB-4 exciters which are 40W rather than 20W
• most annoyingly a metal-like ringing/reverberation in any sound including voice (like when speaking in those toy-microphones which have only a vibrating piece of metal inside without any actual mic or electronics). This was both with the exciters I used earlier, and with the new 40W pair I tried -- and did not go away by rounding the corners of the panel as suggested online (even though it became somewhat better). I suspect that was caused by standing waves across the short dimensions of the panels, and it might be possible to damp them, but I did not investigate this (see comment below)
• the location I was forced to utilize for the panels (again, similar to the soundboard location for a spinet) did not create the soundstage I was hoping. Not by a long margin.

As such, I'm ditching this option for this application. Perhaps with some finite elements analysis one could make it much better than I was able to, but my time is limited and I have to set priorities -- and this isn't. I'll use regular speakers.

I still believe that these panels/exciters are a nice option to consider, as speakers for low-volume applications (and in such a case random experimentation yields at least decent results), but I'd say if you don't have room for at least a 2'x2' panel per channel (i.e. at least 4'x2', and probably twice that much), and possibly not too different from ear level, forget it. I will experiment more for the latter application to augment/complement my floorstanding Polk Audio speaker -- but not for the piano and not soon.

I always wanted to try the big electrostatic speakers (e.g. Martin Logan or Magnepan) with a piano VI.

Some of these just run a huge sheet of mylar & no have woofer (or crossover). They can sound smooth and full at mid- to high-frequencies, to my ears.

Even the big electrostatics didn't have great lower-bass response but maybe not so necessary for piano. Subwoofers could be added; I don't know if the change in form at very low frequencies matters so much; low frequencies are a strange beast.

I wish I had done this https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/361-simple-strokes-for-simple-folks-sound-improvement-on-the-cheap/11 for my now-scrapped soundboard experiment. I still have most of the parts (well, not all of the exciters and not the class D amplifier, since I returned them), so I can still redo the experiment, one day when I have enough time and stamina…. Not today for sure, life is busy and energy has been sucked by other things (hard disk that was having problems finally dead, potential loss of lots of pictures of my young kids; unrelated computer screen reaching end of life; and many other things which I won't bother you with)