Simple strokes for simple folks: Sound improvement on the cheap

Ralphiano · 2022-02-22T20:49:12+00:00

I recently yielded to the irrepressible itch to go see what the thrift stores had waiting for me. I hadn’t been for a while and felt guilty about having neglected them. So, I got on the computer, dialed up Satan Maps, planned a 14 mile-9 store excursion, unpacked my panniers, aired up the tires, set out on the only reasonable chance to increase my net worth. The day produced very little. Until, store number 7. It had been re-organized since I had last visited. I should probably say it had been de-organized. Things were scattered all over, and were not well grouped in any manner of using that word. So, I walked every aisle of the store. As I passed through a collection of shoes and garden utensils, sprinkled with a smattering of cake pans, I was suddenly confronted with 20 slider rheostats, 5 push buttons, and two rotating rheostats, all packaged in a neat, brushed aluminum housing, and proudly proclaiming its identity, the BSR EQ-110X Stereo Frequency Equalizer! Although my Denon 5.1 home theater amplifier already had equalizers for each speaker in the 7 speaker setup, I had recently abandoned its use in favor of a more respectable, mellow sounding, HiFi Adcom 2 channel amplifier. I no longer had an equalizer in my sound chain. My heart quickened. My initial delirium soon subsided, though, when the thought struck me that I do no like to spend large sums of money. So, I searched all 6 surfaces for a price tag. In crayon, on the top aluminum surface was the figure of $20.00. I was bummed; this was going to be a tough decision. But, the silence of my internal debate came to a screaching halt when over the intercom came the voice of the cashier, reminding all patrons that today was 50% off day. My decision was made. I figured I could emotionally recover from the expenditure of $10 within a couple of weeks or so. I boldly and proudly flashed a 10 to the cashier and strutted out the door to my bike. Although I still had two stores to go, I tuned and went home instead. I was not going to leave my new treasure in jeopardy in my panniers while the bike was chained to a post in some unsecured parking lot while I shopped the remaining stores. I turned for home and didn’t look back. After many discomforting thoughts about how this thing couldn’t possibly work, I arrived home and immediately connected it. It worked perfectly! I am not accustomed to good fortune such as this. So, now I had to figure out how to make this thing improve my piano sound. One thing I felt like I had never achieved with my Denon, and now, Adcom amplification systems was an accurate stereo image of the piano at the piano bench. I had tried many different span lengths between the stereo speakers with only modest satisfaction. And, I had not overcome the tendency of my VSTs to mix the sounds of the two distinct recording microphones into both output channels in a manner that blurred the stereo sensation. So, correcting this became my mission. Rather than using VST settings to fight the mixing/cross pollinating of the signals, I used the equalizer to reduce the higher frequencies coming out of the left channel, and to reduce the lower frequencies coming out of the right channel. This had a tremendous effect. More than ever, the high notes seemed to be coming from the right side of the piano, and the low notes seemed to be coming from the left side. It wasn’t perfect, but it was much improved. Next, I started to re-adjust the distance between the speakers. They currently sit atop a simple wood plank laying horizontally across the tops of a pair of floor standing tower speakers that are not in use. They are just furniture, at the present. The plank is 60 inches long, providing the opportunity to set the speakers slightly wider than the width of my VPC1. Of course, knowing well that ‘more is better”, I set the speakers at the outer ends of the plank and played and listened. The sound was nice, The stereo separation was, more than ever, clearly and unmistakably present. But, I never leave well enough alone. Out of curiosity, I started creeping the speakers inward, closer to each other. I was surprised as the sound kept improving, not getting worse. I finally settled on a very unanticipated short span of only 20 inches between the inner edges of the speaker cabinets. I lack the words to describe how much more piano-like the setup sounds with the speakers at such a short distance from each other. I almost giggle with delight as the image of each note moves from left to right as I play a scale form the deep bass to the upper registers. It is just the way I remember the acoustic pianos I have played. When I hit a bass note, I hear it coming from the left, When I hit a high note, I hear it coming from the right. As I play up the scale the image moves along with my hands from left to right. I was, and am amazed. After coming down from my initial high, and after some thought and deliberation, I came to the conclusion that the seemingly narrow speaker placement more accurately modeled the sensation of being at the piano bench than did the wide placement. When playing the piano, the sound comes from directly in front of the player, from within a narrow angle of about a 30 degrees. It does not come from the direction of the two nearest corners of the soundboard, as would be modeled by placing the speakers out at the ends of the keyboard. So, the loss of “absolute” stereo separation is well overcome by the gain in more “realistic” separation resulting from the sound direction being more realistic, and with the truer directionality of the distinct piano notes after having been ‘equalized’ into their most accurate geographical location in relation to the pianist. Of all my tinkering with VST piano sounds, this has provided one of the most effective improvements I have yet experienced.

Ralphiano

Here is a pic. The speakers are only 20 inches apart and never sounded better.

I haven't decided on a permanent home for the equalizer and amplifier, yet. Right now they are close at hand so I can tinker more easily.

CyberGene

I need to digest all of this before responding in a more meaningful way but that’s quite a setup! And a goal, of coarse.

n-player

That is some interesting analogue tinkering!

I will have to try editing the EQ for L/R channels. And moving the speakers much closer together.

I suppose when you reduced the panning in the Garritan CFX a few months ago, you saw some of these benefits.

Ralphiano

Those Stereo Width improvements I came up with some time ago were were closely tied to the use of the home theater 5 channel amplifier, and its capability to create a center channel signal by taking common elements from the right and left channels and combining them into a center channel, and its capability to support satellite speakers on the left and right. The great improvement from that venture came from greatly narrowing the Stereo Width of the Close Mic, and greatly widening the Stereo Width of the Ambient mics. This directed the string/attack noises toward the center from where they would naturally be heard, and sent the reverb/ambient sound signals out as wide as possible, again, to mimic the real piano in a room experience. It was a nice improvement.

I am now back to a 2 channel amplifier. I never got completely comfortable with the brightness of the home theater amp. I recently acquired quality hifi amplifiers (a NAD 3240PE followed by the current Adcom GFA-535 II) and am much happier with the fidelity. The piano sounds so much more "woody" than with the home theater receiver and not so artificially bright. Since switching to these amps, I have not yet experimented with the Stereo Width adjustment to see how it can be utilized in a true, 2 channel stereo format. I will probably do so in the near future.

I am really happy with this current development.

RIP

After some experimenting last weekend, I'm leaning towards traditional receiver plus speakers rather than the class-D + exciters which have been underwhelming. Part of the reason, I'm sure, is surface area and placement: I'm very constrained by the geometry of the piano (earlier tests were more positive, even with non-recommended squares rather than rectangles)

The class D amplis are tiny hence more visually pleasant once I'd integrate one into the piano, but I was not satisfied. I'll try the thrift store / craigslist.

I'll keep you posted!

Ralphiano

Are you referring to those exciters sold by Parts Express, and mounted, per that Youtube video, to a polystyrene (I think) panel and then suspended as freely as possible, to serve as a speaker? If so, I'd love to hear your detailed impressions of their performance. Those videos were intriguing, but not wholly persuasive to me.

Also, I have the image in my mind of you playing a mid sized M&H or other grand. Do you also use a digital?

As for amplifiers, I've tried two home theater receivers. The Pioneer was the poorest sound, just very dull. The Denon was a substantial improvement, though I eventually left it as it was just too bright to properly represent a piano. My happiest experience has been with traditional, midfi solid state amplifiers from the 80s. I have a NAD 3240PE and an Adcom GFA 535 II that have very warm, yet detailed sound. They really convey the woodiness of the piano with no artificial brightness. I wouldn't go the home theater receiver route.

RIP

Ralphiano Are you referring to those exciters sold by Parts Express, and mounted, per that Youtube video, to a polystyrene (I think) panel and then suspended as freely as possible, to serve as a speaker?

Yes

Ralphiano If so, I'd love to hear your detailed impressions of their performance. Those videos were intriguing, but not wholly persuasive to me.

You can find my first impressions in this earlier post: https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/200-upright-piano-speaker-simulator-addon-idea/37 -- those were made with 2 panels, each 2'x2' for R and L channels, and placed at ear's level (the best) or horizontally (ok).

Ralphiano Also, I have the image in my mind of you playing a mid sized M&H or other grand.

Correct. You can read more about that instrument at https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/105-my-new-mh-aa

Ralphiano Do you also use a digital?

I used to have a Yamaha NU1 which I sold a couple of months ago. I am currently working on a DIY hybrid, inspired by Cybrid, and I am documenting my journey in a sort-of steps posts with pictures. You can find the first one at https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/163-build-your-own-hybrid-piano-step-one-choosing-the-action/7 and if you follow the various steps you'll find that I'm at the electronics level. I anticipate that I will just utilize Jay's https://github.com/jkominek/piano-conversion/ but I am doing some experimentation on my own at https://github.com/davidedelvento/Mybrid/

In parallel, I'm also working on the audio chain, and after the very good results with those exciters I intend to go that route. I'll post my report there momentarily, but the tl;dr; version is: not good for panels to use as the soundboard of a vertical piano.

Hence, inspired by your post and not only, I am exploring the thrift store and craigslist. Lots of stuff that used to be high end is now available for the cheap. I'd expect any of these be much better than the class-D+exciters. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Ralphiano . The Pioneer was the poorest sound, just very dull. The Denon was a substantial improvement

Ralphiano My happiest experience has been with traditional, midfi solid state amplifiers from the 80s. I have a NAD 3240PE and an Adcom GFA 535 II that have very warm, yet detailed sound. They really convey the woodiness of the piano with no artificial brightness.

Thanks for the suggestions. I used to have a NAD to, but that fried long ago (I believe my brother still clings on its carcass). I've seen a few ones from private sales locally, which command a bit higher prices than I'd want to pay to explore this option…. Instead I've put my eyes on a couple of Yamahas….

Ralphiano I wouldn't go the home theater receiver route.

In general, I'd agree with you, but just as a "gut feeling". However there are many more choices if one is open to a 5.1 rather than a good ole stereo. So I'm asking: any hard reasons for that? I'd certainly not use the back L+R, but the center front and the sub might even be useful…

Ralphiano really convey the woodiness

I feel that all the virtual piano I tried strongly lack this aspect. May I ask you which do one you use?

Ralphiano

RIP Ralphiano I wouldn't go the home theater receiver route.

In general, I'd agree with you, but just as a "gut feeling". However there are many more choices if one is open to a 5.1 rather than a good ole stereo. So I'm asking: any hard reasons for that? I'd certainly not use the back L+R, but the center front and the sub might even be useful…

My main disappointment with the home theater amps was their tendency toward the kind of brightness (and maybe bass) that accompanied those "Loudness" buttons on cheaper amps. I did find some utility in the 5.1 capability in conjunction with Garritan CFX. The 5.1 system playing back a stereo signal was handicapped by the sound of the hammer attack being broadcast from all channels. It took me a while to figure out that this created an unnatural sound. Hammer attack noise coming out of the surround speakers didn't match the reality of an acoustic piano that emits hammer attack sounds from right in front of the pianist. The Garritan CFX "Stereo Width" control on the ''Close" mic allowed the pianist to narrowly restrict the hammer attack sounds to the very center of the overall soundstage, which the 5.1 system then interpreted as being fit for the center speaker. And the "Stereo Width" control on the "Room" or "Ambient" mics allowed the pianist to widen the the reverberations and other room sounds to the wide speakers of the 5.1 system, for a more natural effect.

So, the Garritan CFX and 5.1 went well together in that regard. However, the signal processing involved in converting a stereo signal to a 5.1 negatively downgraded the quality of the sound, overall. What amount of "woodiness" that could be heard in the "Pure Direct" (unmodified) output was greatly diminished by all the signal processing that the stereo-to-5.1 conversion used.

So, I felt that loss of sound quality outweighed the benefits of the 'Stereo Width" manipulations.

Around that time, I discovered that the speakers I had been enamored with were not really that good. I had been using some Energy towers with dual 6.5 inch woofers and the corresponding center speaker. They were from the early 2000s, had an original suggested retail price of around $1400/pair. But, over the years they were offered they eventually found their stable retail market level down around $600 to $700/pair. These were substantially more speaker than I had previously used. I was unduly impressed by them and enjoyed a substantial "honeymoon" period with them. As that wore off, I came to recognize them as also overly bright and not that impressive.

Sometime about a year ago, someone locally was having trouble selling a pair of Parts Express bookshelf speakers made from a Parts Express kit. They were large for bookshelf speakers, and each had dual 7" woofers. But, they sounded substantially better than those Energy speakers. I got them cheap, and they are the nicest sounding speakers I have yet owned.

I was curious about just how good they were within the overall universe of speakers (I don't know as I've never been able to afford to be an "audiophile"). So I looked up the woofers to see how they compared to the competition. Here is their link: [https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-DA175-8-7-Aluminum-Cone-Woofer-295-335](https://)
They are only $37 each. The available range for 6.5" woofers (I didn't quote 7" because the limited selection provides a very small sample size) at Parts Express goes from $7 to $491, so I think I might still be in the lower range of speaker quality. I'm writing this to emphasize that building your own speakers from either a kit from a reputable manufacturer, or from parts sourced from Parts Express and utilizing their generous technical support. They will work with you to design the crossovers, and match the speakers, crossovers, and cabinets without charge.

I am very pleased with the kit speakers i have. They are much higher quality than the consumer grade stuff that Best Buy sells for $1000 to $1500 dollars.

RIP Ralphiano really convey the woodiness

I feel that all the virtual piano I tried strongly lack this aspect. May I ask you which do one you use?

Garritan CFX was it. Per the above, I had never really noticed its woodiness until I experienced the speaker improvement I described. Before then, the quality of Garritan's sound was masked by the poor speakers. So, if you have used Garritan or a comparable quality VST and not noticed the woodiness, it may not be the VST's fault if you have been using low grade speakers. A lot of expert advice says to invest the most in your speakers. My experience suggests that this advice is good

RIP

I've got a Yamaha HTR 5640 https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/5/319795/01_om_htr-5640.pdf and JBL TLX151 speakers. The latter have wonderful size matching the piano (I will post pictures, one day) and they also have a pretty good off-axis response (since when playing the piano I'd be basically "on top" of them). The 151+5640 sound much better than the exciters and class D ampli I tried before. Not sure they'll be my final choice yet, but for now I'm fine.

Ralphiano My main disappointment with the home theater amps was their tendency toward the kind of brightness (and maybe bass) that accompanied those "Loudness" buttons on cheaper amps.

I hear you. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I opted for the video receiver anyway because the non-video ones were not available at thrift stores (which around here give a week of money-back guarantee). On craigslist they were asking around $200 (!!!) which IMHO is waaaaay too much for something that you can only try in limited circumstances and may die the next day. I made a reasonable-to-me offer to one, but they did not accept it, so I went video 🤔

Ralphiano I'm writing this to emphasize that building your own speakers from either a kit from a reputable manufacturer, or from parts sourced from Parts Express and utilizing their generous technical support. They will work with you to design the crossovers, and match the speakers, crossovers, and cabinets without charge.

No. That would be waaaaay more time than I want to invest into this. Already doing the piano is more than enough. I might put a bit more money into the receiver if I see something on craigslist or thrift store. I doubt as a DIY at first attempt I can do better than what I've got and especially compared to the price (and time!!). If I find a good way to do some spectral analysis, probably a digital equalizer is where I'd go next (like you did in analog). The receiver + speakers sound terrific with streaming, so that's already satisfying. We'll see how it goes when my hybrid will be working.

RIP

I did a quick EQ with the internals of the HTR-5640 (bass: -4dB; treble: -10dB) and here is what white noise look like with it. Both white noise generation and spectrum measurement was done with Samsung A50 (and its mic, even though I considered purchasing the calibrated mic linked below and I might in the future):

I think it can be better, and I will try to make it flatter, but for now it is decent enough. Piano sounds not too bad (definitely better than other values of bass/treble EQ in the allowed -10dB/+10dB range)

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ADR2B84/