Yamaha NU1X "loud note" fix seems to cause another problem

hello, I have tried to replicate this problem cited in this thread. This is the second time I have tried. I have connected pianoteq and the highest values are around 110 (attached image), I have not noticed that they are filtered. To repeat the experiment it would be necessary to know all the configuration both in the NU1X and in pianoteq (which I requested in PW but I didn't get any answer). I am very interested in this topic because I don't like as an owner of this instrument that it is abandoned by Yamaha with unresolved problems. I will be the first, that I know if I detect it, I will send mails with complaints to Yamaha.

IMO I have the feeling that the instrument is being pushed to the limit with tests that I don't know if with a regular practice occur. It doesn't happen to me. I would like to know in which works the problem is apparent so I can try to reproduce it by playing normally. It has also been commented that the solution to the "load note" problem was a patch to get out of the trouble when, as far as I know, no one has obtained real information about how Yamaha solved the problem.

On the other hand I can't find any information about other series with the exact same laser system and the same vertical action (or similar but always vertical) in which the same problems have appeared (silent SG2 and SH2 series, transacoustic TA2, old hybrids DUP-8, DUP-22b, etc). If it was a problem of this sensor in combination with a vertical action it should have appeared beyond NU1 since it has been mounted for more than 20 years. In my opinion it is exclusively a software problem of the NU1 that the NU1X "inherited" and that in my experience no longer appears with the V2.1 correction.

In upright pianos there is no need for the hammer sensor because the key and hammer movement is synchronous. There is no double escapement or repetition lever. In the case of the NU1X not even the "hammer" has to produce a sound (as it happens with the silent and transacoustic); it would have the same behavior as the counterweight lever of the GH action or any other simulated one. With the sensor that these pianos have, they should collect all the information of the key movement (down and up) and transfer it correctly to the corresponding velocity values. In the grand piano action it is mandatory to have double sensor, it would be impossible to detect what is happening in the repetitions when the double escapement mechanism is acting with only the key sensor.

ediegus In the grand piano action it is mandatory to have double sensor, it would be impossible to detect what is happening in the repetitions when the double escapement mechanism is acting with only the key sensor.

I don't think this statement is entirely correct. Hammer sensors are beneficial in both grands or uprights, not because of the double escapement, but because the systems calculate key velocity based on timing between 2 points regardless of acceleration. So, using only the timing you can run into situations in which the same timing leads in reality to a ppp note or a silent strike (sudden acceleration in the last portion of key travel is enough to ppp). Of course you can measure acceleration continuously for all 88 keys, but that requires complex realtime computation far beyond what is implemmented in DPs. One additional simple hammer sensor solves this and guarantees correct detection of silent notes.
PnoScan and many other systems (including from yamaha) only use key sensors in grand pianos. And sometimes run into problems...

Hey ediegus, thank you for your participation! Sorry for not answering yet in the pianoworld thread.

First of all, as I wrote before, I noticed this problem more and more in regular playing and practicing - only after that I tested it systematically with Pianoteq to be certain about the nature of the problem. I am not a trained concert pianist who can play a bombastic ffff on a concert grand, but even me as a late beginner/early intermediate player can reach very high velocities - as it is supposed, thats why they are 128 MIDI velocity steps. Everyone playing classical music will get to literature that demands playing ff+. I really wouldn't say that I push the instruments artificially to its limits.

The settings for the NU1X and Pianoteq: default. Medium touch curve on the NU1X, perfectly straight line as the velocity curve in Pianoteq. But as I wrote before it also happens with the internal voice of the NU1(X).

As vagfilm wrote here and @RIP explained in the pianoworld forum, I do think there is an advantage using a hammer sensor instead/additionally to the key sensor. Kawai wouldn't add the hammer sensor just for fun to increase production costs in their upright silent and hybrid pianos.

ediegus I have connected pianoteq and the highest values are around 110

That's the "problem". You are not playing loud enough. As I said, to reproduce the problem I had to play with arm/body weight technique, and at such a level that my fingertips hurt after two minutes of that. Now, all human beings are different and I am on the frail side, so if @porco_rosso is on the normal-strong side in his upper body, I understand how the problem can be frequent for him -- it's just a non issue for me and from your test I think it's a non-issue for you. But if you try to play with the weight of your arms and body, falling from 4" (10cm) or a bit more, you should be able to get consistent values around 120+ and some of those (while you are still "banging" with the same intensity) will instead show the velocities in the 80s.

As I speculate in an earlier message of this conversation, perhaps this might be cause by the keys going too fast to be detected on the way down, and instead being detected on the slight bounce back from keybed, measuring an apparent slower velocity. To test this hypothesis, one would need a high resolution, fast speed (aka slow-mo) camera (perhaps a gopro would do it) but being a non-issue for me, I'm not going to bother (besides not having such a camera, even if my phone does have a slow-motion mode).

I agree with @vagfilm about the hammer sensor, and I'd add that the first escapement (which upright pianos do have) is sufficient for having hammers and keys moving in different ways.

porco_rosso I tend to the N1X as well. It's "only" 1200 € more expensive than the NV-5S

Check if you can bargain down the N1X.

When I walked into my local store last year the sales person knocked USD $1,800 off the price without me even asking for a discount (reducing it down to about USD $6,750 + tax down from the original price of USD $8,550 + tax).

This made the N1X almost the same price as the NV5S. I can see Kawai struggling to offload the NV5S in that situation.

RIP

I copy my answer from PW to the same discussion 🙂

Hello, just because there is a maximum value (the +120 -127 values) does not mean that it is necessary to reach it. It is a large range that allows a lot of nuances in the scale from 0 to 127 available. On my old clavinova clp-120 it was also not possible to get a +120 if you didn't want to break the keyboard and it was also not possible to get a dpi range below 10 really clear on the pianoteq velocity curve for this reason was the GH keyboard badly made or badly calibrated? I don't think so. On the NU1X I get pretty much the same thing and I find it easier to adjust the velocity curve to the expression the piano offers. Just because the wood action is hard and allows you to pound wildly on the keys doesn't mean it's something you have to do. Of course I'm not going to lend myself to hurting my fingers or pushing the keyboard to the limit by putting the action parts at risk or damaging the felts to find a problem I don't have now (and generate a new one).
I consider it an absolute excess to be playing random keys with force to see if a problem or a strange response from the software is found. So I ask for a piece of music where the NU1X action is not able to solve it.

In the case of the vertical action, there will never be a decoupling between the escapement and the key, the parts are unequivocally connected by the wippen.In addition, the flange is attached to the wippen, which pulls the hammer at the same time as the wippen is lowered in a single position to return the key to its initial position. This is the reason why by measuring just the key you would already have all the information of what the complete action is doing.

From my point of view if there are situations that give rise to speed measurement errors it is that the sensor is not well calibrated and there is a software failure, but not a lack of measurement hardware. Thanks for your comments and feedback.

burkey Check if you can bargain down the N1X.

I don't know if this is a cultural difference, but at least in mainly digital piano stores I have the strong feeling that there is no room for negotiation especially for high demanded hybrid pianos. That's different for acoustic pianos.

I strongly think about the MP11SE as a mid-term solution for a few years until I can more comfortably afford a hybrid grand or even silent piano. I like its action very much and the action alone is a significant upgrade to my FP-30 - only the "missing" MIDI velocities below 30 concern me as I really would like to use it as a MIDI Controller.

ediegus I consider it an absolute excess to be playing random keys with force to see if a problem or a strange response from the software is found. So I ask for a piece of music where the NU1X action is not able to solve it.

There are literally thousands of pieces requiring a ff+. And I don't like to repeat myself, but I noticed this problem in regular playing and practicing.

porco_rosso There are literally thousands of pieces requiring a ff+. And I don't like to repeat myself, but I noticed this problem in regular playing and practicing.

I do think it's shame that you never made serious attempts to discover whether this was a fault with your piano or whether it was representative of all NU1X pianos.

porco_rosso in mainly digital piano stores I have the strong feeling

That is self-defeating.

Don't think about negotiating. Instead, think about how much you want to pay ... and make an offer. Simple.

porco_rosso

Of course I know there are thousands of works with ff+. What I have requested is one or more of the pieces you have practiced regularly to see if I can find the problem.

MacMacMac
It is not self-defeating: it is the norm... At least in my country the prices are fixed and the dealers can only take out a small percentage out of their margin. You see differences of only 10-20 euros between shops, and they cannot go below that (or risk the ire of the brands). Exceptions are discontinued models, but those are rare.
However, I don't see this as something bad: US prices start well above the european fixed price, and continue to be higher even after what could be considered a good negotiation...

ediegus I really don't understand why you need a specific piece of me when you could use any piece with ff/fff? Do you want the see if I play it correctly according to you, lol?

But here it is one of the pieces, Fantasia by Joe Hisaishi, from the "Ghibli Best Stories" notebook, the opening bars in ff, the fifth bar is even a fff, at the end of the piece again ff.

vagfilm I can confirm this for here in Germany. If I would say to a dealer " I offer you 6500€ for the Yamaha N1X" he would smile and say "thats nice for you, the price is 7199€, I can include a bench and/or headphones". Or depending where you are he wouldn't even smile, for example in Berlin. 😉

As I said it's a bit different for acoustic instruments or show room/exhibition instruments.

MacMacMac We have already discussed this on PW some time ago.

In Europe, things just are different.

Cheers and happy negotiations -- where appropriate,

HZ

porco_rosso "thats nice for you, the price is 7199€

Thomann pricing for Portugal is 6700 euros, and that is also the price on a couple of local stores (no inventory at this moment). Lucky us...

porco_rosso

Hi I have tried the first few bars of this piece and others with ff that I have played even harder on my NU1X and I still don't notice the smoothing problem discussed in this thread. In my case I have always adapted the pianoteq velocity curve to fff values around 115. With the internal Yamaha CFX sound I have tried lowering the keyboard sensitivity to the softest one to get a higher volume with the same loudness. In both cases, IMO, the sound I get fff is sufficient for my expectations and my technique.

Knowing a type of works or repertoire was to explore in which margins the error appears in the interpretation. For example when going from mf to fff, or from ff to fff, several fff chords in a row in a specific measure, etc. You also don't make the same strength playing a fff chord as playing a single fff note, etc. In any case to know something related to musical practice and not to isolated tests of key playing with great force or hand positions that may differ from the interpretation. In no case I have referred to the fact that one has to play the piano as I do, since each one of us has our own technique and sensibility.

As a conclusion on this debate on my part, I think it has been good to see if the instrument has a generalized problem or not. Some of us have not been aware of the problem or others have. In your case it has been your experience and you have already proceeded to return it. Whatever happens, I wish you the best in your future purchase and that the model you purchase meets all your expectations.

ediegus Hey ediegus, thank you for testing again with this piece. Sorry if I made a rude impression with asking why you need a piece - I understand it better now. It's good that your NU1X doesn't suffer from this problem and that the instrument satisfies you. 🙂

ediegus Whatever happens, I wish you the best in your future purchase and that the model you purchase meets all your expectations.

Thanks!

I am wondering if there is a way (customize) to soften the keys on the NU1(x). It is hard to explain, but when you press the keys, its like for example, if you are pressing your fingers on wood. there is no soft bottom. I hope this make sense.

Also, is there anyone who owns a NU1(x) that don't have the loud note problem?

Thanks everyone!

JSB The NU1X indeed has hard-bottomed keys which are IMO typical of acoustic piano actions. I came to the NU1X from a Kawai ES7 piano and Kawai digital pianos are notorious for being overly mushy and soft-bottoming which is why I thought the NU1X was too hard. But I quickly became accustomed to it and I prefer it over soft-bottoming keys. I think this is beneficial since a defined bottom point gives a clear indication of where the key bottom is which in turn provides feedback to the arms to release fingers.

I'm not sure if you can soften it, probably you would be able to do so by using softer felt for the front rail bushings. A technician might be able to change them.

As to the loud note issue, it's inherent to the sensing design and all NU1X would exhibit it.

I owned an NU1 and I experienced the loud note problem very rarely in normal play, but I could consistently generate it if I wanted. It depends on what you play (tunes with fast repeats are the worse) and how you play (if you learned to play on an upright like I did, you're good).

Regarding the "soft bottom", the NU1 had a nice feeling: not too soft but not too hard either.

That is a good point about finding out where the key bottom is.

Also, what about buying a used NU1 built in 2014 in good shape?