Yamaha NU1X "loud note" fix seems to cause another problem

RIP

I copy my answer from PW to the same discussion 🙂

Hello, just because there is a maximum value (the +120 -127 values) does not mean that it is necessary to reach it. It is a large range that allows a lot of nuances in the scale from 0 to 127 available. On my old clavinova clp-120 it was also not possible to get a +120 if you didn't want to break the keyboard and it was also not possible to get a dpi range below 10 really clear on the pianoteq velocity curve for this reason was the GH keyboard badly made or badly calibrated? I don't think so. On the NU1X I get pretty much the same thing and I find it easier to adjust the velocity curve to the expression the piano offers. Just because the wood action is hard and allows you to pound wildly on the keys doesn't mean it's something you have to do. Of course I'm not going to lend myself to hurting my fingers or pushing the keyboard to the limit by putting the action parts at risk or damaging the felts to find a problem I don't have now (and generate a new one).
I consider it an absolute excess to be playing random keys with force to see if a problem or a strange response from the software is found. So I ask for a piece of music where the NU1X action is not able to solve it.

In the case of the vertical action, there will never be a decoupling between the escapement and the key, the parts are unequivocally connected by the wippen.In addition, the flange is attached to the wippen, which pulls the hammer at the same time as the wippen is lowered in a single position to return the key to its initial position. This is the reason why by measuring just the key you would already have all the information of what the complete action is doing.

From my point of view if there are situations that give rise to speed measurement errors it is that the sensor is not well calibrated and there is a software failure, but not a lack of measurement hardware. Thanks for your comments and feedback.

burkey Check if you can bargain down the N1X.

I don't know if this is a cultural difference, but at least in mainly digital piano stores I have the strong feeling that there is no room for negotiation especially for high demanded hybrid pianos. That's different for acoustic pianos.

I strongly think about the MP11SE as a mid-term solution for a few years until I can more comfortably afford a hybrid grand or even silent piano. I like its action very much and the action alone is a significant upgrade to my FP-30 - only the "missing" MIDI velocities below 30 concern me as I really would like to use it as a MIDI Controller.

ediegus I consider it an absolute excess to be playing random keys with force to see if a problem or a strange response from the software is found. So I ask for a piece of music where the NU1X action is not able to solve it.

There are literally thousands of pieces requiring a ff+. And I don't like to repeat myself, but I noticed this problem in regular playing and practicing.

porco_rosso There are literally thousands of pieces requiring a ff+. And I don't like to repeat myself, but I noticed this problem in regular playing and practicing.

I do think it's shame that you never made serious attempts to discover whether this was a fault with your piano or whether it was representative of all NU1X pianos.

porco_rosso in mainly digital piano stores I have the strong feeling

That is self-defeating.

Don't think about negotiating. Instead, think about how much you want to pay ... and make an offer. Simple.

porco_rosso

Of course I know there are thousands of works with ff+. What I have requested is one or more of the pieces you have practiced regularly to see if I can find the problem.

MacMacMac
It is not self-defeating: it is the norm... At least in my country the prices are fixed and the dealers can only take out a small percentage out of their margin. You see differences of only 10-20 euros between shops, and they cannot go below that (or risk the ire of the brands). Exceptions are discontinued models, but those are rare.
However, I don't see this as something bad: US prices start well above the european fixed price, and continue to be higher even after what could be considered a good negotiation...

ediegus I really don't understand why you need a specific piece of me when you could use any piece with ff/fff? Do you want the see if I play it correctly according to you, lol?

But here it is one of the pieces, Fantasia by Joe Hisaishi, from the "Ghibli Best Stories" notebook, the opening bars in ff, the fifth bar is even a fff, at the end of the piece again ff.

vagfilm I can confirm this for here in Germany. If I would say to a dealer " I offer you 6500€ for the Yamaha N1X" he would smile and say "thats nice for you, the price is 7199€, I can include a bench and/or headphones". Or depending where you are he wouldn't even smile, for example in Berlin. 😉

As I said it's a bit different for acoustic instruments or show room/exhibition instruments.

MacMacMac We have already discussed this on PW some time ago.

In Europe, things just are different.

Cheers and happy negotiations -- where appropriate,

HZ

porco_rosso "thats nice for you, the price is 7199€

Thomann pricing for Portugal is 6700 euros, and that is also the price on a couple of local stores (no inventory at this moment). Lucky us...

porco_rosso

Hi I have tried the first few bars of this piece and others with ff that I have played even harder on my NU1X and I still don't notice the smoothing problem discussed in this thread. In my case I have always adapted the pianoteq velocity curve to fff values around 115. With the internal Yamaha CFX sound I have tried lowering the keyboard sensitivity to the softest one to get a higher volume with the same loudness. In both cases, IMO, the sound I get fff is sufficient for my expectations and my technique.

Knowing a type of works or repertoire was to explore in which margins the error appears in the interpretation. For example when going from mf to fff, or from ff to fff, several fff chords in a row in a specific measure, etc. You also don't make the same strength playing a fff chord as playing a single fff note, etc. In any case to know something related to musical practice and not to isolated tests of key playing with great force or hand positions that may differ from the interpretation. In no case I have referred to the fact that one has to play the piano as I do, since each one of us has our own technique and sensibility.

As a conclusion on this debate on my part, I think it has been good to see if the instrument has a generalized problem or not. Some of us have not been aware of the problem or others have. In your case it has been your experience and you have already proceeded to return it. Whatever happens, I wish you the best in your future purchase and that the model you purchase meets all your expectations.

ediegus Hey ediegus, thank you for testing again with this piece. Sorry if I made a rude impression with asking why you need a piece - I understand it better now. It's good that your NU1X doesn't suffer from this problem and that the instrument satisfies you. 🙂

ediegus Whatever happens, I wish you the best in your future purchase and that the model you purchase meets all your expectations.

Thanks!

I am wondering if there is a way (customize) to soften the keys on the NU1(x). It is hard to explain, but when you press the keys, its like for example, if you are pressing your fingers on wood. there is no soft bottom. I hope this make sense.

Also, is there anyone who owns a NU1(x) that don't have the loud note problem?

Thanks everyone!

JSB The NU1X indeed has hard-bottomed keys which are IMO typical of acoustic piano actions. I came to the NU1X from a Kawai ES7 piano and Kawai digital pianos are notorious for being overly mushy and soft-bottoming which is why I thought the NU1X was too hard. But I quickly became accustomed to it and I prefer it over soft-bottoming keys. I think this is beneficial since a defined bottom point gives a clear indication of where the key bottom is which in turn provides feedback to the arms to release fingers.

I'm not sure if you can soften it, probably you would be able to do so by using softer felt for the front rail bushings. A technician might be able to change them.

As to the loud note issue, it's inherent to the sensing design and all NU1X would exhibit it.

I owned an NU1 and I experienced the loud note problem very rarely in normal play, but I could consistently generate it if I wanted. It depends on what you play (tunes with fast repeats are the worse) and how you play (if you learned to play on an upright like I did, you're good).

Regarding the "soft bottom", the NU1 had a nice feeling: not too soft but not too hard either.

That is a good point about finding out where the key bottom is.

Also, what about buying a used NU1 built in 2014 in good shape?

First time I hear of the ‘soft’ note issue, and if this can be consistently reproduced, shame on Yamaha!

Did they create a new problem whilst eliminating an old?

And let us not forget that Yamaha initially denied such ‘loud-note’ issue, and wanted us to believe this was ‘normal’; so much, that even the manual said ‘normal’ when referring to this loud-note behavior.

I think it’s about time they redesign this instrument, and this time they should use the correct sensor array.

Hi,

For all NU1X owners with the « hot note » issue, I have made a StreamByter script addressing this specific issue + improving many aspects of MIDI velocity in DP related to real piano playing.

https://audeonic.boards.net/thread/923/velocity-enhancer-improve-controller-response

StreamByter is a free MIDI FX framework running on MacOS and iOS, as standalone or AU.

Primarily, I am not owner of a NU1X but of an acoustic upright retrofitted with an optical sensor having apparently the same kind of behavior and issue.

Cheers.

Paulo164 thanks for the fix and welcome to the forum. I also proposed on PW forums the idea of monitoring the repetition speed (by observing if a note is repeated too soon after it has been previously released) and if the produced volume is higher than a certain delta above the previous one, to reduce it and one member implemented it:
https://github.com/herqX/YamahaNU1LoudNoteFix

Later on he was contacted by Yamaha and they provided him with beta version of what is now the latest firmware of Yamaha NU1X and it is believed Yamaha themselves implemented a similar algorithm. It would be interesting to compare the difference between all these solutions.

CyberGene Thank you !

Yeah, I took the time to read your script.

Yours is based on a fixed elapsed time threshold, whereas mine average with previous velocity according to a function roughly following Exp(-k.elapsed time), where k is a coefficient representing the decay time. So the lesser the elapsed time, the greater the weight of previous velocity. It would be interesting to compare the results between both methods on the field.

It may be off-topic here but my script also includes a lot of velocity optimisations based on physic principles in piano playing.

Cheers.

Paulo164 the script was written by another guy, it was only the idea that was mine, however at the time I had already sold my NU1X and had replaced it with a N1X and so I don't know if it works well, nor I was able to provide any additional input/feedback. From what I see, your approach is indeed more advanced and includes more optimizations 👍🏻 Someone with a NU1X can test and compare the two approaches.