Yamaha NU1X "loud note" fix seems to cause another problem

porco_rosso "thats nice for you, the price is 7199€

Thomann pricing for Portugal is 6700 euros, and that is also the price on a couple of local stores (no inventory at this moment). Lucky us...

porco_rosso

Hi I have tried the first few bars of this piece and others with ff that I have played even harder on my NU1X and I still don't notice the smoothing problem discussed in this thread. In my case I have always adapted the pianoteq velocity curve to fff values around 115. With the internal Yamaha CFX sound I have tried lowering the keyboard sensitivity to the softest one to get a higher volume with the same loudness. In both cases, IMO, the sound I get fff is sufficient for my expectations and my technique.

Knowing a type of works or repertoire was to explore in which margins the error appears in the interpretation. For example when going from mf to fff, or from ff to fff, several fff chords in a row in a specific measure, etc. You also don't make the same strength playing a fff chord as playing a single fff note, etc. In any case to know something related to musical practice and not to isolated tests of key playing with great force or hand positions that may differ from the interpretation. In no case I have referred to the fact that one has to play the piano as I do, since each one of us has our own technique and sensibility.

As a conclusion on this debate on my part, I think it has been good to see if the instrument has a generalized problem or not. Some of us have not been aware of the problem or others have. In your case it has been your experience and you have already proceeded to return it. Whatever happens, I wish you the best in your future purchase and that the model you purchase meets all your expectations.

ediegus Hey ediegus, thank you for testing again with this piece. Sorry if I made a rude impression with asking why you need a piece - I understand it better now. It's good that your NU1X doesn't suffer from this problem and that the instrument satisfies you. 🙂

ediegus Whatever happens, I wish you the best in your future purchase and that the model you purchase meets all your expectations.

Thanks!

I am wondering if there is a way (customize) to soften the keys on the NU1(x). It is hard to explain, but when you press the keys, its like for example, if you are pressing your fingers on wood. there is no soft bottom. I hope this make sense.

Also, is there anyone who owns a NU1(x) that don't have the loud note problem?

Thanks everyone!

JSB The NU1X indeed has hard-bottomed keys which are IMO typical of acoustic piano actions. I came to the NU1X from a Kawai ES7 piano and Kawai digital pianos are notorious for being overly mushy and soft-bottoming which is why I thought the NU1X was too hard. But I quickly became accustomed to it and I prefer it over soft-bottoming keys. I think this is beneficial since a defined bottom point gives a clear indication of where the key bottom is which in turn provides feedback to the arms to release fingers.

I'm not sure if you can soften it, probably you would be able to do so by using softer felt for the front rail bushings. A technician might be able to change them.

As to the loud note issue, it's inherent to the sensing design and all NU1X would exhibit it.

I owned an NU1 and I experienced the loud note problem very rarely in normal play, but I could consistently generate it if I wanted. It depends on what you play (tunes with fast repeats are the worse) and how you play (if you learned to play on an upright like I did, you're good).

Regarding the "soft bottom", the NU1 had a nice feeling: not too soft but not too hard either.

That is a good point about finding out where the key bottom is.

Also, what about buying a used NU1 built in 2014 in good shape?

First time I hear of the ‘soft’ note issue, and if this can be consistently reproduced, shame on Yamaha!

Did they create a new problem whilst eliminating an old?

And let us not forget that Yamaha initially denied such ‘loud-note’ issue, and wanted us to believe this was ‘normal’; so much, that even the manual said ‘normal’ when referring to this loud-note behavior.

I think it’s about time they redesign this instrument, and this time they should use the correct sensor array.

Hi,

For all NU1X owners with the « hot note » issue, I have made a StreamByter script addressing this specific issue + improving many aspects of MIDI velocity in DP related to real piano playing.

https://audeonic.boards.net/thread/923/velocity-enhancer-improve-controller-response

StreamByter is a free MIDI FX framework running on MacOS and iOS, as standalone or AU.

Primarily, I am not owner of a NU1X but of an acoustic upright retrofitted with an optical sensor having apparently the same kind of behavior and issue.

Cheers.

Paulo164 thanks for the fix and welcome to the forum. I also proposed on PW forums the idea of monitoring the repetition speed (by observing if a note is repeated too soon after it has been previously released) and if the produced volume is higher than a certain delta above the previous one, to reduce it and one member implemented it:
https://github.com/herqX/YamahaNU1LoudNoteFix

Later on he was contacted by Yamaha and they provided him with beta version of what is now the latest firmware of Yamaha NU1X and it is believed Yamaha themselves implemented a similar algorithm. It would be interesting to compare the difference between all these solutions.

CyberGene Thank you !

Yeah, I took the time to read your script.

Yours is based on a fixed elapsed time threshold, whereas mine average with previous velocity according to a function roughly following Exp(-k.elapsed time), where k is a coefficient representing the decay time. So the lesser the elapsed time, the greater the weight of previous velocity. It would be interesting to compare the results between both methods on the field.

It may be off-topic here but my script also includes a lot of velocity optimisations based on physic principles in piano playing.

Cheers.

Paulo164 the script was written by another guy, it was only the idea that was mine, however at the time I had already sold my NU1X and had replaced it with a N1X and so I don't know if it works well, nor I was able to provide any additional input/feedback. From what I see, your approach is indeed more advanced and includes more optimizations 👍🏻 Someone with a NU1X can test and compare the two approaches.

Hello everyone,

I'm from Vietnam. This is the way I fixed 100% Loud note issue on my Yamaha Nu1x. You can see the demo clip and the method to fix in YouTube video Description: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPuP4oJung8

Tamtran This is the way I fixed 100% Loud note issue on my Yamaha Nu1x.

Nice information. Sensor replacement is a sensible approach … especially when there is clearly visible difference between that particular sensor and a normal looking one.

Tamtran a clarification is needed here. There are two types of loud note issues with the NU1X:

1. The infamous one which is present on all NU1 and NU1X units, on all keys and is a result of the design. The keys have very good and precise dynamics, however sometimes if you release the key partially and then replay it, it will generate a very loud tone although the key is pressed softly. This is often noticeable when performing trills. It can consistently be reproduced on any Yamaha NU1(X) piano, see here. It's the issue which the 2.10 firmware attempts to improve by doing some software assumptions, such as for instance if you are playing a trill the software wouldn't allow for a sudden loud tone (that's an oversimplification but you get the idea). The root cause is the upright piano action which unlike grand pianos requires that you release the keys fully before playing them again, because otherwise the jack cannot slide back under the hammer butt (yep, that's how it's called 😀). Since the NU1X only has key sensors, it doesn't know whether the jack has been reengaged or not. In case it's not reengaged, the key becomes very light since there's no hammer to push. Hence it can easily be accelerated with high velocity and the sensors detect the high velocity of the key and produce loud note. That problem is resolved on the more expensive N1X and similar grand piano action hybrids because there are also hammer sensors, so the piano knows that the hammer is not moving. Besides, on a grand piano you can replay a key even if you release it partially, due to the presence of double-escapement mechanism.
2. Keys that are consistently louder than other which is your case. That's a manufacturing defect affecting some pianos but not all. I had the same issue on my NU1X with two keys near the middle C and I couldn't resolve it, so I returned the piano and replaced it with the N1X.

Once again, these are two types of loud note issues and when speaking about the NU1X most often people mean the first one. The second one is very rare but thanks for sharing information about the cause 👍🏻

CyberGene because otherwise the jack cannot slide back under the hammer butt

Sliding the jack back under the butt is indeed a very slippery situation; that is, unless, the butt is further accommodated (not an easy thing to do; considering the size of the butt).

😀

The latest 'loud note' issue case could 'possibly' be a different case. That's if there are no other reports of the same thing happening - with the damaged black-coloured film surface (sensor film) that is --- or whatever it is that got damaged.