Yamaha NU1X "loud note" fix seems to cause another problem

porco_rosso · 2021-11-05T13:44:56+00:00

Hallo dear PianoClack members, I discovered your forum as an alternative to pianoworld and thought I would share the problem I have with my new Yamaha NU1X, as some of you may be interested in this. I copied and translated the description of the problem out of the Mail to my dealer: While playing, I noticed that some tones that I play forte / fortissimo do not sound as expected, but quieter and more muffled, as if I had only played mezzo forte or even mezzopiano. This does not refer to specific individual keys, but can occur with all keys. At first I didn't think anything of it, but it became more and more annoying to me. Today I tested it very systematically: I played several keys fortissimo one after the other. For example, the first two notes played sound as one would expect - but the ln the third key is much more muffled and quieter, so as I would have only played it mf. If I then play this key one or two more times, even with very high intensity, it only stays with mf instead of f / ff. If I now take a short break and start again, then the key that has just caused problems and did not want to be louder reacts normally as f / ff. If I then repeat the whole thing again with other keys, the next few keys sound again quite normally ff and suddenly dull / mf again. I wanted to take a closer look at the MIDI outputs of the keys and connected the NU1X to my laptop with Pianoteq. The program allows me to see the MIDI output (between 0 and 127; the higher the louder) of the keys being played. And then I could observe the following: When I play a key f / ff the MIDI output is around 110-120. If, however, suddenly there is one key that is quieter, the MIDI output is much lower, at around 70, as if it were limited by the software. Since the sensors work with every key, and this problem can occur with every key, I assume a software-related problem. Before the firmware update 2.10, the NU1X was affected with the so-called "loud note issue", where sometimes very loud notes suddenly appeared while playing. Examples of this can be found on youtube or forum.pianoworld. The cause of the problem was probably due to the fact that the NU1X only uses one key movement sensor, which does not work as precisely as three-sensor systems. The problem does not occur with the N1X / 2 / 3X or with the Kawai NV-5/10 with three (Kawai two) sensors incl. hammer sensor. After the problem was first denied by Yamaha, the "loud note issue" was "fixed" with the firmware update - apparently a kind of algorithm was added to the software to detect very loud MIDI velocities and reduce them to avoid the sudden occurrence of loud notes... I guess this mechanism contributes to the fact that the software in the Yamaha sometimes recognizes very high MIDI sensor velocities as "loud notes" and reduces them, which explains the sudden duller tones. Again: The problem does not relate to certain individual keys, which could then be assumed to be a fundamental fault in the sensor or the like, but affects all equally (or not). Until I discovered this problem it was a fantastic instrument. But my impressions really make sense now in the retrospective, in some pieces where I had do play f/ff I sometimes had the feeling my strike didn't translate very well in a nice, loud, growling/piercing tone. I thought it was my playing and I have to adjust to the new instrument… Today I visited the next big piano store in Berlin to test if this happens with their NU1X - it does! It seems to be a systematic error due to the "loud note issue" firmware-update "fix". The software/algorithm seems to detect intentional hard strikes sometimes (and way too often) as an unintentional "loud note" and lessen the MIDI-value, resulting in a too soft sound... But it's a false alarm. I can't believe it, how can Yamaha still produce and sell these pianos with this systematic error due to their non-sufficient one sensor system? And I can't believe how nobody has noticed this until now? It's less noticeable than a sudden out of place loud note of course, so for Yamaha this may seem to be a better "solution" than the loud note issue. I will send it back - that the keyboard responds accurately to my input is the minimum requirement for any piano, and even my Roland FP-30 can do this. Seems that there is no alternative to a NV-5S/10S or N1X, but they are much more expensive…

RIP

I owned an NU1 and I experienced the loud note problem very rarely in normal play, but I could consistently generate it if I wanted. It depends on what you play (tunes with fast repeats are the worse) and how you play (if you learned to play on an upright like I did, you're good).

Regarding the "soft bottom", the NU1 had a nice feeling: not too soft but not too hard either.

JSB

That is a good point about finding out where the key bottom is.

Also, what about buying a used NU1 built in 2014 in good shape?

Pete14

First time I hear of the ‘soft’ note issue, and if this can be consistently reproduced, shame on Yamaha!

Did they create a new problem whilst eliminating an old?

And let us not forget that Yamaha initially denied such ‘loud-note’ issue, and wanted us to believe this was ‘normal’; so much, that even the manual said ‘normal’ when referring to this loud-note behavior.

I think it’s about time they redesign this instrument, and this time they should use the correct sensor array.

Paulo164

Hi,

For all NU1X owners with the « hot note » issue, I have made a StreamByter script addressing this specific issue + improving many aspects of MIDI velocity in DP related to real piano playing.

https://audeonic.boards.net/thread/923/velocity-enhancer-improve-controller-response

StreamByter is a free MIDI FX framework running on MacOS and iOS, as standalone or AU.

Primarily, I am not owner of a NU1X but of an acoustic upright retrofitted with an optical sensor having apparently the same kind of behavior and issue.

Cheers.

CyberGene

Paulo164 thanks for the fix and welcome to the forum. I also proposed on PW forums the idea of monitoring the repetition speed (by observing if a note is repeated too soon after it has been previously released) and if the produced volume is higher than a certain delta above the previous one, to reduce it and one member implemented it:
https://github.com/herqX/YamahaNU1LoudNoteFix

Later on he was contacted by Yamaha and they provided him with beta version of what is now the latest firmware of Yamaha NU1X and it is believed Yamaha themselves implemented a similar algorithm. It would be interesting to compare the difference between all these solutions.

Paulo164

CyberGene Thank you !

Yeah, I took the time to read your script.

Yours is based on a fixed elapsed time threshold, whereas mine average with previous velocity according to a function roughly following Exp(-k.elapsed time), where k is a coefficient representing the decay time. So the lesser the elapsed time, the greater the weight of previous velocity. It would be interesting to compare the results between both methods on the field.

It may be off-topic here but my script also includes a lot of velocity optimisations based on physic principles in piano playing.

Cheers.

CyberGene

Paulo164 the script was written by another guy, it was only the idea that was mine, however at the time I had already sold my NU1X and had replaced it with a N1X and so I don't know if it works well, nor I was able to provide any additional input/feedback. From what I see, your approach is indeed more advanced and includes more optimizations 👍🏻 Someone with a NU1X can test and compare the two approaches.

Tamtran

Hello everyone,

I'm from Vietnam. This is the way I fixed 100% Loud note issue on my Yamaha Nu1x. You can see the demo clip and the method to fix in YouTube video Description: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPuP4oJung8

SouthPark

Tamtran This is the way I fixed 100% Loud note issue on my Yamaha Nu1x.

Nice information. Sensor replacement is a sensible approach … especially when there is clearly visible difference between that particular sensor and a normal looking one.

CyberGene

Tamtran a clarification is needed here. There are two types of loud note issues with the NU1X:

The infamous one which is present on all NU1 and NU1X units, on all keys and is a result of the design. The keys have very good and precise dynamics, however sometimes if you release the key partially and then replay it, it will generate a very loud tone although the key is pressed softly. This is often noticeable when performing trills. It can consistently be reproduced on any Yamaha NU1(X) piano, see here. It's the issue which the 2.10 firmware attempts to improve by doing some software assumptions, such as for instance if you are playing a trill the software wouldn't allow for a sudden loud tone (that's an oversimplification but you get the idea). The root cause is the upright piano action which unlike grand pianos requires that you release the keys fully before playing them again, because otherwise the jack cannot slide back under the hammer butt (yep, that's how it's called 😀). Since the NU1X only has key sensors, it doesn't know whether the jack has been reengaged or not. In case it's not reengaged, the key becomes very light since there's no hammer to push. Hence it can easily be accelerated with high velocity and the sensors detect the high velocity of the key and produce loud note. That problem is resolved on the more expensive N1X and similar grand piano action hybrids because there are also hammer sensors, so the piano knows that the hammer is not moving. Besides, on a grand piano you can replay a key even if you release it partially, due to the presence of double-escapement mechanism.
Keys that are consistently louder than other which is your case. That's a manufacturing defect affecting some pianos but not all. I had the same issue on my NU1X with two keys near the middle C and I couldn't resolve it, so I returned the piano and replaced it with the N1X.

Once again, these are two types of loud note issues and when speaking about the NU1X most often people mean the first one. The second one is very rare but thanks for sharing information about the cause 👍🏻

Pete14

CyberGene because otherwise the jack cannot slide back under the hammer butt

Sliding the jack back under the butt is indeed a very slippery situation; that is, unless, the butt is further accommodated (not an easy thing to do; considering the size of the butt).

CyberGene

😀

SouthPark

The latest 'loud note' issue case could 'possibly' be a different case. That's if there are no other reports of the same thing happening - with the damaged black-coloured film surface (sensor film) that is --- or whatever it is that got damaged.

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