Everybody keeps saying that the use of non-binary pronouns is an abuse of language.
Now while I also don't agree with the reasons for this particular change of language like most people here, the evolution of language and grammar has been ongoing forever, and that in itself is nothing out of the ordinary. So even if it sounds weird or unpleasant to us now, it will be normal use of language in some years. When it comes to language, usage is the final arbiter.
The (his) attempt (Mr. Gaulands) was clearly made here to play down the Nazi era in the context of German history. As a German who is well aware of his historical responsibility, I think differently about it.
MBiG well aware of his historical responsibility
How do babies become burdened with historical responsibility? You, along with most of the rest of the German population were born after the national socialist era, and none of you can by any stretch of the imagination be claimed to hold any responsibility for a past you could not affect, because you did not exist at the time. Are the grand children of murderers guilty by blood relation?
Monoch Now while I also don't agree with the reasons for this particular change of language like most people here, the evolution of language and grammar has been ongoing forever, and that in itself is nothing out of the ordinary. So even if it sounds weird or unpleasant to us now, it will be normal use of language in some years. When it comes to language, usage is the final arbiter.
I think it's all good when language evolution is not forced and happens naturally. Otherwise, we just happen to come a step closer to Orwell's 1984.
I lived in Soviet Union, where everything, including language, was censored and forced upon people. I can see similar trends creeping in into everyday lives of people living in modern western countries, unfortunately.
A lot of times it's being justified by "greater good" for society or some groups of it. And all you have to sacrifice is a bit of your own personal freedom.
Of course, we Germans as persons are not responsible for the crimes of the previous generations. Likewise, I would not hold anyone from any country responsible for crimes in that country's history.
But the German state, to which I also belong, is responsible for the fact that this part of the story is not played down.
I only say …. lessons learned.
Bad things don't have to happen again, neither in Germany nor anywhere else.
So let us remain critical and vigilant.
MBiG So let us remain critical and vigilant.
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more!
But let's keep everything in perspective, so as to not focus entirely on one historical bad deed, when others also exist.
Please don't go off-off-topic with that AfD crap. Keep the discussion back to off-topic to the previous nonsense! Consider yourself warned! Next time the Banhammer will crush skulls!
On PW we would have been banned into oblivion for this OT. 😆
I agree… One nonsense OT in each nonsense OT thread (wait a minute… Was this thread on topic or off topic to begin with???).
Now seriously: PianoClack is a "piano" forum, and is in serious need of piano-related discussions. I know this is the silly season of piano announcements (no new models will be announced until Christmas, NAMM may be cancelled or reduced, the seasoned PW members that packed and moved their tent here are not going to post something like "Help! suggestions for a digital piano with real action and Steinway tone under 200 dollars… Any ideas?"), but any post somehow related with piano (heck, even pivot length!!!) is needed in order to keep the momentum going. My 2 cents…
Drew-r homo
That's what the diverse, tolerant, peaceful, educated, non-judgmental liberal (I'm independent by the way) do, they label everyone; xenophobe, homophobe, racist, sexist, etc…
The very thing they are against!
vagfilm any post somehow related with piano (heck, even pivot length!!!) is needed in order to keep the momentum going. My 2 cents…
I really like the acceptance here of off-topic (or of any-topic) discussion. But I agree that it'd be nice to read something about pianos once in a while.
Jose EB5AGV So one of those people could begin a discourse addressing people as: "Buenos días a todos, todas y todes" (Good morning to…). And everything should be talked that unnatural way.
It is a so ridiculous and unnecessary way of destroying a wonderful language and making talking extremely slow and dense… but the majority voted them, so enjoy your choice!
It happened something similar in Italy too, some years ago. I think it's aberrant to "force" changes in terms that have a centuries-old historical tradition, only to indulge the whims of some current arrogant politicians. And I think it's aberrant that the mass-media and main newspapers followed these whims with no resistance, although the majority of the population I am sure did not agree with these changes…
How do you rate the statements of a leading AFD politician (Gauland)? .... That national socialism is just a "bird shit" in 1000 years of German history.
Holy cow. I knew there was always a lot of drama, but the Adult Beginners Forum really seems to have escalated lately! 🤣
Skropi Lets not complicate things, a man is a he, and a woman is a she. You dont get to choose your genes. And if someone is offended by me calling them as such, they are free to feel however they like, as I am free to use the language as it was intended too.
This. Exactly.
As someone more famous than me has said: My facts don't care about your feelings.
Mikas A lot of times it's being justified by "greater good" for society or some groups of it. And all you have to sacrifice is a bit of your own personal freedom.
Who judges what is the "greater good"?
And exactly why is free speech to be suppressed for some "greater good"?
In my view free speech itself is among the highest forms of the "greater good".
burkey Sex = XX or XY (immutable - at least without serious amounts of CRISPR gene editing!)
Gender = identity (choice)
This sounds like a modern invention. It seems like a ploy to provide a justification for taking offense at our pronouns.
But I'm with Skropi on this. Sex and gender are synonymous.
Sorry for responding belatedly BUT i do object to you quoting me out-of-context.
I did use the word “homosexual” which is still a fine word as far as i am concerned, especially when used responsibly. However, “homo” in modern use has been officially deemed to connote an intentionally disparaging meaning which perhaps you meant but i did not.
MacMacMac Mikas A lot of times it's being justified by "greater good" for society or some groups of it. And all you have to sacrifice is a bit of your own personal freedom.
Who judges what is the "greater good"?
And exactly why is free speech to be suppressed for some "greater good"?
In my view free speech itself is among the highest forms of the "greater
To Mikas: agreed. There was a time here when it was written that personal freedoms were seen as near infinite, too many to practically enumerate the entire scope but among them life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. In the present we are in a time when personal freedoms for rank & file citizens have been effectively reduced from all that it once was to what it is; a plastic-coated card - for wearing around your neck or carrying in wallet - detailing the extent of personal freedoms for a given citizen by a series of numbers that uniquely identifies your person as a human resource of a given age & ethnicity, consumer status IE. banking/credit accounts, health status & insurance provider, next of kin and if you are an organ donor.
To MacMacMac - agreed; ‘nuff said.
Random observations:
It's (at least) the directly Latin based and more distantly Latin based "Germanic" languages that make difference between male and female personal pronouns.
There are many languages that don't and those languages work just fine.
There's a thing called "gender dysphoria". Look it up. So, when people "almost correctly" say that sex is the chromosomes and gender is a choice that can give a wrong impression. It's not necessarily a choice. You don't choose that "From now on I'll start feeling like a man although I was born as a biological woman". (Just as you don't choose to be hetero/homo/bisexual.)
You can choose what to do about it and doing something about it involves psychiatric counceling, but not because you are crazy, but to make sure that for example hormone treatment and/or corrective surgery is really the right way to proceed. It may not always be.
A man is a man and a woman is a woman, but what qualifies as "man" or "woman"? It's ultimately up to the person themselves. Transitioning sometimes leads to very convincing results and at other times there's some "uncanny valley". But if we then feel "icky" it's our problem. And there are masculine women and feminine men -- just born that way -- even without transitioning with hormones and surgery. And our prerogative then is not to date and mate them if we don't wanna. And some people are just plain ugly for whatever reason, but ugly people are people too. 😉
There's a difference between "modern invention" and "modern discovery".
There's talk about "social constructs". Some of those may be "modern inventions" i.e. people making things up. I don't have any more specific opinions about that topic. I haven't bothered too much about the "woke" culture, Social Justice Warriors, safe spaces and trigger warnings, but enough to know that sometimes people are just silly and there apparently are some real problems e.g. in some universities.
Then there are "modern discoveries" where we learn about things that have already existed and hopefully change our behaviour accordingly. A lot of the sexual identity stuff probably belongs to this category, so it's fact, it's science and calling it a "modern invention" is just inability to accept new information that is against old personal beliefs, ideas and opinions. (Absorbed from the culture and social circles in which we grew up, so it's not really just an individual's own fault.)
Intentional misgendering is a thing. You might not have realized that somebody is trans, but once you do, you start calling a female "him" or a male "she" just to fight against something that you personally don't like. It happens.
Who defines the "greater good"? E.g. Sam Harris has written and talked about the topic of science vs. moral questions, but "well-being" can be a hard thing to define, quantify and measure. And cultural relativism can get in the way too: "Who are we to judge?" etc.
You could say that freedom of speech grants people the right to call you a "dickhead" but the other side is:
- Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences, so there can be some.
- It's not great for your personal well-being, so which one weighs more? Somebody else's freedom of speech or your personal well-being?
Just call a him a "him" and a she a "she".
But I don't know what to do with the "It's complicated" people. Treat them with respect, maybe(?)
That's a balanced and very well put view. I think I intuitively try to adhere to the same philosophy about that stuff, however I admit that on the surface, and especially when I am annoyed by extreme opinion and behavior on both sides, I will occasionally take some stance that does not necessarily reflect my internal view. I mean, I've argued fiercely with woke-people, as well as with extreme conservatives... Maybe I just like to argue 🤣 But yeah, I like what you expressed in that post 👍🏻