Virtual piano comparison

vagfilm I have made a small Kontakt script for velocity mapping. It is convenient and can be adapted to any Kontakt library, but it still is a pain to fine tune the curve...

Thank you. That could be a very precise way to get it done. I've been using the Comp/Expd feature, but I'm not sure it's a perfectly smooth curve. Some bars look taller when they should be shorter. It doesn't always look like it's a precise graduation effect like it should be. Maybe that's just the way the graph portrays it. It's so small I really can't tell for sure. Here is a picture of my current curve and a crop of a few bars with arrows marked over the bars that appear to me to be taller than they should be. There are bars like that throughout the entire curve. Maybe it just an illusion of the graph and it actually does graduate evenly. I don't know.

God Bless,
David

Yes, that one gives you full control. In your enlargement I think there's really no issue. That's just dithering in the image that's done to smooth the visual appearance of the bars.

Does Kontakt remember your curve settings and restore them whenever you restart Kontakt?

MacMacMac Does Kontakt remember your curve settings and restore them whenever you restart Kontakt?

If I save everything as a .nkm file then everything is recalled when I open it, i.e., piano settings, velocity curve, and eq output settings. Alternatively, I could save just the touch curve setting as a mulitscript and then add it to any instrument I open up.

MacMacMac That's just dithering in the image that's done to smooth the visual appearance of the bars.

I like that word "dithering." 🙂 I hope that you're right.

God Bless,
David

David B

Hi David,

Just curious - how did you manage to unlock the “crossgrade” discount for the full version of Kontakt? I also own Noire as well as a few other NI instruments, but they still want to charge me $200 for the full version, so I wonder if I’m not doing something correctly.

I’m not really interested in the additional editing features, but there are several libraries I’ve had my eye on that only are compatible with the full version of Kontakt.

I’ve been balking at spending $200 just for the privilege of being able to buy even more VSTs, but if I could get it for $100, it becomes a much more tempting proposition.

jdg78 Hi. I logged into my account on the Native Instruments website, put Kontakt 6 into my shopping cart, and it showed the crossgrade price when I checked my shopping cart. Here is the page from NI that explains what the crossgrade discount is and who is eligible for it.

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/210264185-What-Exactly-is-a-Crossgrade-Update-Upgrade-and-How-Do-I-Qualify-

God Bless,
David

David B

Thanks for the info. I tried and it offered me a $75 discount, so I could get it for $125. I think because I bought the Noire for half price during a holiday sale, it must not qualify me for the full $100 off.

In any case, still deciding whether or not it's worth it. Thanks again!

Utilizing VSL's demo license period I rekindled a flame for the Steinway D-274. I owned it once before but sold it because it felt too percussive and harsh in the attack. However, that was before VSL upgraded their Synchron Piano Player with a velocity curve editor. Now that I can fine tune the velocity curve I've found that I really like the D-274. I actually like it better than the VSL Bosendorfer Imperial that I've been using since it came out. The D-274 (with the adjusted velocity curve for my N1X) has a sweeter tone, better overall dynamic range with greater playability and expression at lower volumes. I just sold my VSL Bluthner 1895 license and plan on buying the D-274 (for the second time) at the discounted price. Here are Gene's tracks with my D-274 settings.

file-1.mp3
file-2.mp3

God Bless,
David

I like the first in the poll more. I didn't read any of the spoilers. It goes by feeling.

David B Those wavs sound like listening somebody playing Piano rather than to be in front and playing. I cannot imagine using that audio for playing.

David B The D-274 (with the adjusted velocity curve for my N1X) has a sweeter tone, better overall dynamic range with greater playability and expression at lower volumes.

That has been my opinion from day one. In the D-274 the timbre changes from mellow to metallic and aggressive, while the Bosendorfers have beautiful tone but sound "almost" as being one layer - the tone changes in volume rather than in timbre. The CFX is also very interesting: the notes are better separated when playing fast, but the tone is a bit brighter overall and it sounds a bit more distant.

I am also tempted to upgrade the D-274 from standard to full, but really like the offline convenience of the e-Licenser dongle that to me it is useful from time to time; since I have to give that up if I purchase the Full license, I have not made my mind.

It is not clear from your screenshots if the delay in the Tube and Mid1 mics is activated or not. If it is, try again the preset with the delays set at zero: this way you add complexity to the tone without adding too much spaciousness. I like it that way (and most of the days I prefer the Main mic to the Mid1, but keep changing my opinion on that).

vagfilm In the D-274 the timbre changes from mellow to metallic and aggressive, while the Bosendorfers have beautiful tone but sound "almost" as being one layer - the tone changes in volume rather than in timbre.

Bold supplied.

That's a very good description.

vagfilm I am also tempted to upgrade the D-274 from standard to full, but really like the offline convenience of the e-Licenser dongle that to me it is useful from time to time; since I have to give that up if I purchase the Full license, I have not made my mind.

Of course you can opt for dongle activation with iLok also. I guess that's an additional cost though. I would make the switch since iLok is integral with VSL going forward.

vagfilm It is not clear from your screenshots if the delay in the Tube and Mid1 mics is activated or not. If it is, try again the preset with the delays set at zero: this way you add complexity to the tone without adding too much spaciousness.

I've got no reverb or delay activated. Natural reverb from the ambient mics (mid1/surround) is enough.

God Bless,
David

David B while the Bosendorfers have beautiful tone but sound "almost" as being one layer - the tone changes in volume rather than in timbre.

That's a very good description.

In full disclosure, the description was made by someone else (here? PW?) during the recent VSL discussions, and I fully agree, particularly in the 3 upper octaves in which some of the velocities sound like regular piano engines and not like VSTs.

David B you can opt for dongle activation with iLok also

But the iLok dongle costs almost 3 times the price of the eLicenser. I have to decide between the convenience of the offline vs the additional mics...

David B Natural reverb from the ambient mics (mid1/surround) is enough

Fully agree

vagfilm It is not clear from your screenshots if the delay in the Tube and Mid1 mics is activated or not. If it is, try again the preset with the delays set at zero: this way you add complexity to the tone without adding too much spaciousness.

I just realized why you might have asked that. When I went to listen to File 1 that I uploaded it had a weird delayed sound to it. I thought that doesn't sound right so I refreshed my screen and played it again. It was normal after that. I'm not sure if that happened to you, but it could be a glitch in PianoClack.

God Bless,
David

I've also been demoing all the VSL Synchron pianos this week, and I agree that the Steinway D-274 stands out as being particularly excellent among the modern grands. I find to be very flexible and powerful, and it really responds to what ever I try to convey in terms of expression. Might be the best of the bunch all-around. It does sound a touch hard and aggressive at the higher velocities, and I still think I prefer the warmer tone of the Bosenderfer Imperial overall, but the Steinway is really, really good. I plan to purchase this once the trial period is over.

I also absolutely adore the 1895 Bluthner, which I purchased from David (thanks David!) but that is more of a niche instrument and probably not for everyone.

I didn't care much for the 280VC - it sounds rather hard, flinty and one-dimensional to me. Nothing at all like the Imperial. I would never have guessed these come from the same manufacturer.

Judging from peoples responses on other forums, the CFX seems to be the runaway favorite, but I personally don't find it to be all that special. There's nothing wrong with it, but I don't think it has any standout characteristics either, and just seems somewhat neutral and colorless to me in comparison with the D-274 and the Imperial. But I seem to be in the minority in this opinion.

Both the uprights are very well done, and convey the character of the instruments well, though I personally prefer the Bosendorfer over the new one. Actually the new 1904 German Upright sounds extremely close in tone to another VST I already have (NI Gentleman) which is also sampled from a turn-of-the-century Bechstein upright.
Maybe I'll post some samples later.

Sorry I didn't read all the thread, but I recognized almost immediately the Pianoteq engine in the first file. The metallic feeling is always there, on some octaves more than in others, but I have to say that the reverb algorithm used in the Pianoteq engine does a really good job to enhance the realism, and the richness and details of the sympathetic resonances on Pianoteq is very high (much better than Garritan), almost at acoustic-piano level. Unfortunately it's a little too much bright and metallic on some notes, otherwise it would be very good, better than some Steinway VSTs. Then I hear my digital piano sound and I feel it almost like a toy: 3-4 velocity layers, very short samples, looped sound, lacking in high frequencies, etc... Well, whatever, I'm just a beginner at piano, so I should not complain too much... 😆
The sad thing is that the current DPs are not much better than those of 4-5 years ago. IMHO Pianoteq engine improves faster than most DP engines.

VSL Fazioli F308

CyberGene jam

fazioli.mp3

Here are my current settings.

God Bless,
David

midi1.flac

midi2.flac

Here are the files with my pianoteq settings and DAW FX

dikrek thanks, you’ve managed to tame down the typical Pianoteq character as much as possible which is a commendable achievement 👍🏻 However, I can still hear it in those up-down scale sequences in the upper-mid region which is exactly why I played that way in the first place: to try to highlight where Pianoteq struggles. Somehow your first file is better than the second one in that regard though.

CyberGene try these, I think a setting was off

midi21.flac

midi11.flac

A couple more with Logic's new piano and XLN Addictive Keys

xln.flac

logic.flac