Pianoteq, Laurel and Yanny - what do you hear and like part 2

MacMacMac I hear Yanny. Always.

Even when shifting pitch more than +4 semitones? Please vote accordingly.

MacMacMac Anyway ... what has this to do with Pianoteq?

@QuasiUnaFantasia mentioned that people hearing "different" things when listening to the exact same sound (such as in this test) could be correlated to people liking or disliking PTQ.

People who year Yanny (like you) have a hearing which physiologically or psychologically "prefers" certain frequencies which are different from those who hear Laurel.

I speculate that there is a correlation beteween hearing Laurel and liking PTQ, hearing Yanny and disliking it, or being "in between" on what word to hear and being "in between" liking and disliking it. Votes so far somewhat confirm that speculation, but we need to collect more statistics.

I hear a high-pitched ringing, but then I do suffer from tinnitus!

Mac, I know you will use this against me, “yes, Pianoteq sounds like a high-pitched ringing coming from another room”, but I ask that you have some mercy, and try ‘living in my tinnitus-ears’ for a day before you go on making hurtful jokes!

I don't understand the point.

Let's begin ...
I like the Steinway sound.
If the Pianoteq Steinway sounds like a real Steinway, then I will like the Pianoteq Steinway, too.
OTOH, if the Pianoteq Steinway is unfaithful to the Steinway sound, then I will dislike the Pianoteq Steinway.

Another person (with different hearing, and with a different Yanny result) might also like a real Steinway.
If the Pianoteq Steinway sounds like a real Steinway, then he will like the Pianoteq Steinway, too.
But if the Pianoteq Steinway is unfaithful to the Steinway sound, then he will dislike the Pianoteq Steinway ... just like me, despite his different Yanny hearing.

Yet another person might dislike the Steinway sound. (Heathen!) 🙂
If the Pianoteq Steinway sounds like a real Steinway, then he will dislike the Pianoteq Steinway, too.

Comment: The need is to compare real piano A with Pianoteq's version of piano A.
Conclusion: Yanny doesn't matter. This exercise is moot.

RIP Even when shifting pitch more than +4 semitones? Please vote accordingly.

My earlier reply (I always hear Yanny) was based on a recording I pulled from another web site.
I pitch shifted that sample up a fifth and down a fifth using Audacity. It was Yanny for all three cases.

Later I found that Wiki link where there were two samples available. With the pitch shifted upward it was Laurel instead.

I hear distinctly Laurel at 0, and distinctly Yanni at -2. The funny thing is at -1, I hear both! Am I crazy (or have multiple personalities)? Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question! 🤣

The other surprising thing is when the transition from Yanni to Laurel happens, going back down 1 step or even 2 or 3, I still keep hearing Laurel at pitches I previously heard Yanni, but not when gradually raising the pitch from an octave below. Weird stuff indeed.

I'm hearing something like "Yorrie" between -12 and -9. And I almost clearly hear Laurel at -8. I can't hear Yanny at any setting. I'm using the "Change Pitch" effect in Audacity, also selecting the "use high quality stretching (slow)" option. I'm using my Sennheiser HD-595s.

I added an option to the poll that I can't hear Yanny. OK, I've removed that and voted for -6 or lower. I can hear Laurel at -8.

I'm betting that Pete14 hears "Paul is the walrus". 🙂

MacMacMac

I am surprised that Mac³ is not hearing "Get off my lawn"! That's probably because he can't hear himself! 🤣 🤣 🤣

MacMacMac Comment: The need is to compare real piano A with Pianoteq's version of piano A.

That is another exercise for another day. BTW, you yourself claim that PTQ pianos sound all the same, and many people to various degree relate or agree with it. So I did not specify any PTQ instrument, but if you prefer you can specify that, especially if you like Steinway and dislike Gotrian (I know you dislike both).

The exercise here is if the PTQ sound is good, regardless if it's similar to the claimed brand.

MacMacMac Conclusion: Yanny doesn't matter. This exercise is moot.

This claim is totally antiscientific and does not follow from the rest of your message.

There is reason to suspect that the liking or not liking of the PTQ sound is due to what frequencies one hears (because of the ear or because of the brain). There is evidence that Yanny/Laurel dichotomy is due to what frequency one hears (because of the ear or because of the brain). Hence it's a reasonable investigation to see if there is correlation between liking PTQ and hearing Laurel. You don't care, don't do it, you believe you have your answer already, see whether or not is the same of the test result -- but it's not moot at all.

I haven't figured out how to get sound from the player on the Wikipedia page.

RIP This claim is totally antiscientific and does not follow from the rest of your message.

It follows precisely. Please re-read it.

RIP There is reason to suspect that the liking or not liking of the PTQ sound is due to what frequencies one hears (because of the ear or because of the brain).

That reason for liking or disliking Pianoteq (the Yanny test) may have merit. But it's not relevant if Pianoteq properly mimics a piano.

Because if someone dislikes certain frequencies in a real piano, he'll dislike any VST that properly duplicates the sound of that real piano ... for the very same reason.

That is, if I like A ... and if B equals A ... then I should logically like B, too.

The point in testing the correlation between Pianoteq and Laurel/Yanni is clearly to begin to understand why some people like Pianoteq, while others dislike it. It is a fine study towards that goal (albeit the amount of statistical material here is too limited to warrant any strong conclusions - at least at present; for all we know PianoClack may in the future have tens of millions of maddeningly active users, who all participate in the study). 😄

I don't think it's (just) down to the listener's hearing. Sometimes I hear one, sometimes the other. I can hear Yenny, not Yanny BTW. Sometimes they switch, but I can't make my perception switch at will unlike the Rihanna "paper chaser"/"big ****ing slut", where I can hear whichever one I choose.

If you're offended by "bad" words don't click. 😀

That "paper chaser" example is astounding. Suggest one phrase and I'll hear that. Suggest the other and I'll hear that instead. And no pitch-change voodoo needed. Amazing. This one has me slapping my face in disbelief.

That's named "sensorial priming". Our brain is "designed" to highlight similarities versus contrasts, or otherwise we would go insane if every small irregularity would be perceived as a new entity. You would be astonished by the number of unconscious things that our brain does for our "protection".

Ralphiano I haven't figured out how to get sound from the player on the Wikipedia page.

What if you download the file instead?

MacMacMac delvento This claim is totally antiscientific and does not follow from the rest of your message.

It follows precisely. Please re-read it.

Fair enough, sorry for being dismissive without argumenting. I re-read it more carefully and let me deconstruct it now. It looks to me that you make two implicit assumptions which in my opinion (and with the things we all know about PTQ) are both false:

1. PTQ (or any virtual instrument, FWIW) could objectively (or even subjectively, but in a "constant-per-person" way) "sound like" (quoting your words) the corresponding acoustic piano it's based on.
2. Ignoring the "elephant in the room", i.e. that some people notice a difference among the various PTQ sounds, so much that they purchase them individually while for others those instruments sound all pretty much the same.

The Yanny/Laurel tests demonstrate that a recording of something can "sound like" (my words, stressing that are the same as yours) in two different ways to different people and even to the same person by pitch shifting (or even without pitch shifting with the "profanity" test). As such, 1 is false.

Before comparing PTQ instrument A to corresponding acoustic instrument A, IMHO one has to understand why the point 2 happens, otherwise it's a moot point! Like showing a mix of people (including color blind persons) images like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishihara_test#/media/File:Ishihara_9.svg and try to conclude whether or not it shows the number 21. Knowing what color-blindness is and who is affected by it, we can conclude that yes, the image shows 21 but not everybody sees it for chemistry reasons of the eye. Likewise, my test tries to understand if some characteristics of one's hearing influence how one likes PTQ. Of course I am shooting in the dark with a guess, because it might be a gazillion of reasons why that's the case, and low probability that I find the right answer, especially at first attempt. Nevertheless the question has merit and it is not moot, whether or not I find such a correlation in the results, as @QuasiUnaFantasia has argued.

MacMacMac That "paper chaser" example is astounding.

Probably because I'm not a native speaker, I hear only uttered non-sense, which I can try to force myself to interpret as word, but that feels like the witnesses of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Murders_in_the_Rue_Morgue

In any case, this example justifies my the test even more, doesn't it?

vagfilm That's named "sensorial priming".

Interesting! Let me make an even longer shot than the Yanny hypothesis. Can it be that we "primed" ourselves to like, or dislike PTQ and so most of us are strongly stuck in one camp, whereas a few poor souls (like myself) who are listening to it with an open mind explicitly looking for both the good and the bad (paper and profanity) could constantly switching camp?

RIP Can it be that we "primed" ourselves to like, or dislike PTQ and so most of us are strongly stuck in one camp, whereas a few poor souls (like myself) who are listening to it with an open mind explicitly looking for both the good and the bad (paper and profanity) could constantly switching camp?

This!

RIP Can it be that we "primed" ourselves to like, or dislike PTQ

I believe this could explain it partly. But I do not believe it explains it fully. I started out using Pianoteq before having listened to modern samples, and I really liked the Pianoteq sound. Later I discovered sampling, and since that time I find fault with Pianoteq's sound.

RIP Can it be that we "primed" ourselves to like, or dislike PTQ and so most of us are strongly stuck in one camp

I don't think that is the case for many. I am always EAGERLY wanting to enjoy pianoteq, and I cannot ever (let me rephrase it: If I had to live with the Pianoteq, I think I would be very happy with their Steinway B and Petrof Mistral; but then I compare it to Garritan or VSLs, and think "why settle for this?").
Maybe the priming lies not on our bias, but on our piano-listening/playing experience. I have ZERO experience of anything other than perfectly tuned and regulated pianos because I have never played for more than 5 minutes in real-life domestic pianos. So, ALL my piano listening experience comes from live or recorded concerts (thus, perfect pianos). Some people like the imperfection of some VSTs because it reminds them of their imperfect pianos. I cannot do that, because I don't have that experience. So, whenever I hear a demo of pianoteq or a sampled piano, my thought is "can this fool me for being an actual recording?". Many sampled examples can, while pianoteq never does throughout a piece. It is always "wow, it is very good. Sounds really authentic... Maybe they nailed it. Jeez, this section here is really off. Now, it is good again... Nahh, it is weird sounding again. Forget it...". And I must say that some of the worst examples are the demos in the official Pianoteq page.