Pianos (keys) are badly designed!

CyberGene

While I'm fascinated by Janko, isomorphic layouts and all sorts of interesting ideas and improvements people come up with - atleast on conceptual level. I recognize that making keys narrower is probably the only thing general public might actually find palatable enough for it to have a staying power. Because for all intents and purposes - it looks like and plays a regular piano - but simply with narrower octave size!

And even such minute change might or might not garner widespread appeal, as the industry is truly very conservative.

If a piano maker targets those who already play the piano, then they will favor regular keyboard layout, because otherwise their potential customers would go elsewhere. If, on the other hand, they target those who do not already play piano, they might indeed favor a different layout.

It is anyone's guess who the piano makers consider their primary target. but my bet is on those who already play piano.

DavisB

Oh, tell me about the conservative industry. I spoke with Richard Dain (a 96 yo engineer, owner of Phoenix pianos) as he lives 20 min. from where I live here in the UK. He told me about it.
Then (last year or so) I got invited by the 'Edelweiss pianos' in Cambridge, UK and we talked for about an hour+ but they said there is no "industry" anymore really in the UK, mostly technicians and maintainers of old pianos and those from the far Euast (Japan\China), and small percentage German\Austrian\Italian\French. All parts – imported and they just assemble them and make the finish colour\texture on the wood\enclosure. All as if we ari en the mid 1800s but with modern materials and look.

Pianists on the other hand – they are clueless. They play what's been given to them. And brand fanboys. I am neither.
I just observe and do my own conclusions. Stay tened, there is more…

PASHKULI Pianists on the other hand – they are clueless.

What a ridiculous statement.

I've deeply explored Janko and even your idea which I found advertized somewhere. I was initially greatly enthusiast about them, because of the simplification of learning (not anymore 24 scales and 24 arpeggios to learn etc). That was my opinion as somebody who struggled to learn the piano.

In my current opinion, the problem is not the keyboard. In fact the keyboard is genius and works wonderfully well (besides being too wide for the average hand). The problem is how the keyboards and key signatures are taught. There is a double hidden symmetry in the keyboard which is essential for knowing exactly where you are. Having the black keys in groups of two and three allow one to know exactly what one is doing, without need to use vision, nor muscle memory. Once one consider this in the appropriate way, the 24 scales and arpeggios become merely 3. Anybody can learn three simple patterns. The problem is, they are not taught that way, and some people (like my daughter) intuitively discover them while some others (like myself) bang their head on the keyboard for years (until I met Phil Best who showed me the path, but I digress…)

Janko completely destroys the keyboard symmetries, and that is a major flaw of that design. The Pashkuli design does not completely destroy that, so it's an improvement compared to Janko, but in my opinion it is a step in the wrong direction because it does make the keyboard isomorphic in the back of the key, and I am strongly convinced that isomorphic layouts are very bad for piano playing. In my opinion, the very key aspect of the Pashkuli design, namely the "fair/equal access" to adjacent keys is exactly what makes it bad. Keys need to be different for the player to be able to know and learn them for what they are. Heck, even apparently isomorphic string instruments such as the guitar and the violin are not: the frets (or note spacing) are unequal, and the open strings are used extensively.

So count me not interested.

That said, I appreciate and admire the efforts made into bringing this design to life. Beautifully made prototypes and pictures. If one has really strong feeling about wanting an isomorphic keyboard, and if I were unable to convince them away from that idea, I would nudge them to Pashkuli rather than Janko.

DavisB which makes me suspect they aren't selling out as quickly as we'd have liked

In my opinion they made too many things wrong. The most clear ones:

• relatively high price

• announced when it is not available yet for a long time

• pay in installments rather than in one shot

• lots of distracting buttons / dials / display -- should have been a VPC1-like instead

• big case not taking advantage of the smaller keyboard (I've always struggled to put keyboards in a car and that would have solved that!)

• speakers of dubious quality, like all speakers embedded in pianos (maybe they are fine, but if so they should have posted audiofile-like graphs and specs, but even so it'd have been better to omit them and reduce the price)

• not clear what sort of action they use "full weighted hammer action" means close to nothing, see next bullet

• I'm really debating if I should write that (I have intentionally not done so thus far, but I can't resist now, and I think it's okay since it's buried inside a differet obscure thread): People who know anything about manufacturing in China, know that the manufacturing costs are at least 10x less than what they are asking. See for example

  
  

  https://caruibo.en.made-in-china.com/product/rmaUjsYyhScR/China-88-Key-Portable-Digital-Piano-with-Full-Weighted-Hammer-Action-Keyboard.html

CyberGene you know him?

Yes.

This spammer is flooding forums with his ideas, that noone is really concerned about, as everyone knows its stupid from the ground. This is his second or third attempt here, he is posting the same thing since few years and is completely resistant to any advices given. It's complete loss of time trying to discuss anything with this man.

Khuja Wangtishvili

Hey, Khuja
please, I am opened to any advice! I have never heard\read one from people speaking about giving me advice and never write a word about it (pretty much in all other forums). What kind of advice? On what subject and ithas to be very specific not a generic one such as "I have not played that keyboard, therefore my advice is to make it as the one I have." as such advices have no meaning.
The main topics I tackle in my work regarding anything related to Music are:
• "standard" piano keys discrepancies and origin of design (why they are the way they are today and why it has come from an ignorant\medieval point of veiw)
• uniform keyboard layouts such as Janko, Dreschke, Bayan and so on – shapes, rows, symmetry, keybed, suspension and so on
• Music Notation – again why it has come from an ignorant point of view (predilections and subjective point of view) in medieval times and imposed by the Church in education not only in Europe
• anything related to recording and mixing Music – I am a huge fan of Binaural setups on headphones as I only use headphones (not to disturb others\neighbours) – such as BRIRs, EqualiserAPO, ASH-Dataset etc.
• anything related to design for manufacturing (wood, metal, plastics) maybe even hint on electronics and programming

Any advices or opinions are most welcome. No need to tell me my designs suck because you've never tried them (let alone spend at least ⅓ of the time you've spend on whatever you have been given\taught on). It means nothing.

RIP

You are mentioning 'symmetry'. This is a really interesting topic and I have not finished my third video (for my YouTube channel, I had recent Windows OS issues and had to clean my PC).

When you speak about 'symmetry' I can only suggest you to look at your hands. What do you notice about them?
Yes! Indeed, they are symmetryc to one another… yet, that is not the way you play it on a piano. On a piano all notes go from left to right (ascending in pitch) and vice versa. Put on top of that the dexterity phenomena: left or right-handedness! It is a fact of Nature, you can not object nor can you ignore it.
Look at flute, guitar, violin and many more instruments where the player sort of 'embraces' the body of the instrument – for each hand the notes go in one direction because the hands oppose to each other as the result of the embracement.

Now look at piano and such accordions. I see the problem, hope you see it as well.
The current status quo on those instruments is… they are costructed to fit the dexterity of left-handed players!!!
Here is my proof or train of thought regarding this:
A left-haded guitarist usually holds the neck and plays "virtuosly" with their right hand and the notes go ascending from index\thumb to pinky for buth hands (yes, I know there are odd balls such as Eric Gales, Seal and maybe a few more but they are exceptions which has its explanation in their youthful ignorance of just taking a "regular" guitar and symmetrically flip it to hold it as a left-handed players by nature).
Left-handed guitarists use the left-hand as dominant to trigger strings, strumming, dynamic pluck etc. or when finger-picking that left hand thumb and index/middle usually trigger lower notes.

Take an accordion with a Halberstadt ("standart") piano keyboard. What do you notice?
The bass notes are on the left hand, The bellows (air compartment) gets expanded and compressed thus "strumming" the reeds by the same left hand (onder a strap on the left side of the accordion). Where the right hand if you expand wide enough te bellow will look as the right hand of a left-handed gutiar player (notes go ascending from thumb to pinky).
This is a left-handed accordion (they all are)!

Now lets see\analyse the typical piano:
It has its lower notes on the left (left hand) usually used as a bass, chord foundation notes, mode\root.
The right hand has its notes ascending from thumb\index to pinky and are usually the higher notes. Exactly how it is with a left-handed guitarist. But here is the problem!

Your hands are symmetric! Most people are right-handed! On a piano fingers of each hand do not oppose, rther they play on one side of the layout of notes.
Therefore, piano disregards the natural symmetry of fingers from each hand! And it forces you to use your left-hand where the heavier\bass notes are on the weak fingers (pinky and ring). And after all that analysis it is evident piano is more suitable to left-handed players! But that is not all.

Pianos should be split in two tiers for each hand – where each tier has a symmetric\mirored direction of the ascending notes! And more over – because most people are right-handed – the higher notes should be on the left and the lower should be on the right tier yet for both hands notes should asscend in pitch from thumb to pinky.

All chords and phrases will have the same shape for eather hand on the respective tier. Unless you want to cross hand and play on either tier some occasional parts.

PASHKULI Your hands are symmetric! Most people are right-handed! On a piano fingers of each hand do not oppose, rther they play on one side of the layout of notes.
Therefore, piano disregards the natural symmetry of fingers from each hand! And it forces you to use your left-hand where the heavier\bass notes are on the weak fingers (pinky and ring). And after all that analysis it is evident piano is more suitable to left-handed players!

The bass parts of music usually require less dexterity. That's the nature of western music. The treble part is the one that requires more dexterity when playing most piano music. Whether the music is being played by a single person or an orchestra, the treble usually moves more. This gives right-handed pianists a huge advantage -at least early on.

If the piano keys in the bass are too hard to play for the weaker fingers, there's something wrong with the piano.

Johnstaf

Piano keys are heavier on the bass side (weight wise) as the treble ones have more percussive sound and if heavier it will be not a treble sound rather a… clack, forte clack.

What makes you think then that legato and virtuoso right-handed guitar players shold use their right hand as your logic suggests? They do not. Right handed guitar players use ther left hand to do the fretboard passes, phrases, legato flows. The right hand is picking, responsible for dynamic volume\picking\strum.

If you match that to the piano – just place your left hand and sort of try to pretend the keyboard becomes a guitar fretboard – that hand is the one that should play higher notes (from thumb to pinky).

Who ever (in History) said that piano notes should ascend from left to right? Why? What is the logic behind it?
It does make sense mostly if you are a left-handed player.

The topic itself is interesting.

Meanwhile, while I am impartial about the following (about whether they should be kept/banned), I could see why OP might’ve been banned in some forums, and it’s probably due to the posts seeming to be of business interests versus purely for sake of discussion.

Notice how the first post seemed innocent in nature and then bam— long post about what the OP has been working on. Look at the YouTube channel description where there’s info about partaking in a business venture on this effort.

I for one will be ignoring this particular thread from here on out, but wish the OP the best in their business endeavors on the product that they intend to eventually monetize.

PASHKULI Who ever (in History) said that piano notes should ascend from left to right? Why? What is the logic behind it?
It does make sense mostly if you are a left-handed player.

Your theory posses a minor dilemma:

What if I’m ambidextrous?

Doesn't seem like playing virtuosic classical repertoire would be very ergonomic or even possible on this, but that is most likely because the music is wrong, right?

Pete14

Indeed, that is why the symmetry matters! The two tier piano concept got you covered!
That is the Natural way to design such keyboard instruments. Then, if you are really ambidexterous you can swap both tiers if you feel more left-handed today.

Current one direction flow of notes makes at least one hand "not so comfy" even if you are ambidext.
Imagine an ambidext guitarist. They will have two guitar necks symmetrically (tiers) from the guitarist's body and the notes will go also that way on the neck.

Piano is badly designed in so many levels.

ambrozy:

Doesn't seem like playing virtuosic classical repertoire would be very ergonomic or even possible on this, but that is most likely because the music is wrong, right?

ambrozy

No. You have learnt it that way. Those who compose it did it the same way.
How many days\months\years it took till you been able to pull off such\any masterpiece on the "usual\standard" piano?
You have to count from the first day you got at a piano!
Be honest!

I was playing piano for over a decade before I noticed the difference in the "tail" widths.
I don't see why anyone would care. It doesn't affect me at all. So ... much ado about nothin?

MacMacMac

Good. It did affect me when I was 14. It told to me, whomever designed it – they had no idea how to do it correctly.
That's all. But it was not just one key, some digital keyboards by Yamaha and Roland had excessively wide D key.
It was obvious they were trying… to do something but couldn't. They (not brand specific) could not for 400+ years.

Guys… It is New Years Eve and this trolling has been going on for a few hours. Pop some champagne instead!

I have only watched the first video, and tomorrow I will watch the second part. So far I can't see any trolling, you seem genuinely confident about the new simmetry on every tail and head. Which you achieved, yes, but at the expense of what? Something has to give. I would be surprised if nobody thought about it before you. Now you achieved a perfect simmetry on heads and tails, but there is a new problem now: the F# is almost sitting on the middle of the entire F head, and the Bb is sitting almost entirely on the middle of B head. This is not good when you play chromatic passages, because the shift of your thumb underneath your middle finger, will encounter different distances in those two areas. So all in all, I think there is not covenience in making heads and tails perfectly simmetrical. But it was a good idea. Probably you haven't thought about the chromatic passages because as you said, you can barely play the piano. So great effort and intention anyway.

I have watched the second part. That was interesting, but again, you might get an advantage at the expence of something else. What is our priority playing piano? Glissando and fast repetition of the black key? Ehm, I would say no. If you were an advanced player you would spot quickly the flaws here. The first flaw is that with these curved black keys, you are increasing the chance of playing two or three keys at once, accidentally. The second problem is that when you need to stretch the hand span a lot (beyond one octave), you often need to push your hand forward until you litterally push the keys forward (and that's why also a cheap action will fail and get destoyed quickly by a good player), so with your curved black keys there is the risk that your stretched fingers won't meet any resistance from the the black keys, and you will end up again playing the wrong notes accidentally. But who knows, your idea might be good for those few pianists who are fixated with glissando and fast repetition with a flick. Or maybe for those with severe tendonitis. This second part is more interesting than the first, so thanks for sharing the idea.