Pianos (keys) are badly designed!

Khuja Wangtishvili

Hey, Khuja
please, I am opened to any advice! I have never heard\read one from people speaking about giving me advice and never write a word about it (pretty much in all other forums). What kind of advice? On what subject and ithas to be very specific not a generic one such as "I have not played that keyboard, therefore my advice is to make it as the one I have." as such advices have no meaning.
The main topics I tackle in my work regarding anything related to Music are:
• "standard" piano keys discrepancies and origin of design (why they are the way they are today and why it has come from an ignorant\medieval point of veiw)
• uniform keyboard layouts such as Janko, Dreschke, Bayan and so on – shapes, rows, symmetry, keybed, suspension and so on
• Music Notation – again why it has come from an ignorant point of view (predilections and subjective point of view) in medieval times and imposed by the Church in education not only in Europe
• anything related to recording and mixing Music – I am a huge fan of Binaural setups on headphones as I only use headphones (not to disturb others\neighbours) – such as BRIRs, EqualiserAPO, ASH-Dataset etc.
• anything related to design for manufacturing (wood, metal, plastics) maybe even hint on electronics and programming

Any advices or opinions are most welcome. No need to tell me my designs suck because you've never tried them (let alone spend at least ⅓ of the time you've spend on whatever you have been given\taught on). It means nothing.

RIP

You are mentioning 'symmetry'. This is a really interesting topic and I have not finished my third video (for my YouTube channel, I had recent Windows OS issues and had to clean my PC).

When you speak about 'symmetry' I can only suggest you to look at your hands. What do you notice about them?
Yes! Indeed, they are symmetryc to one another… yet, that is not the way you play it on a piano. On a piano all notes go from left to right (ascending in pitch) and vice versa. Put on top of that the dexterity phenomena: left or right-handedness! It is a fact of Nature, you can not object nor can you ignore it.
Look at flute, guitar, violin and many more instruments where the player sort of 'embraces' the body of the instrument – for each hand the notes go in one direction because the hands oppose to each other as the result of the embracement.

Now look at piano and such accordions. I see the problem, hope you see it as well.
The current status quo on those instruments is… they are costructed to fit the dexterity of left-handed players!!!
Here is my proof or train of thought regarding this:
A left-haded guitarist usually holds the neck and plays "virtuosly" with their right hand and the notes go ascending from index\thumb to pinky for buth hands (yes, I know there are odd balls such as Eric Gales, Seal and maybe a few more but they are exceptions which has its explanation in their youthful ignorance of just taking a "regular" guitar and symmetrically flip it to hold it as a left-handed players by nature).
Left-handed guitarists use the left-hand as dominant to trigger strings, strumming, dynamic pluck etc. or when finger-picking that left hand thumb and index/middle usually trigger lower notes.

Take an accordion with a Halberstadt ("standart") piano keyboard. What do you notice?
The bass notes are on the left hand, The bellows (air compartment) gets expanded and compressed thus "strumming" the reeds by the same left hand (onder a strap on the left side of the accordion). Where the right hand if you expand wide enough te bellow will look as the right hand of a left-handed gutiar player (notes go ascending from thumb to pinky).
This is a left-handed accordion (they all are)!

Now lets see\analyse the typical piano:
It has its lower notes on the left (left hand) usually used as a bass, chord foundation notes, mode\root.
The right hand has its notes ascending from thumb\index to pinky and are usually the higher notes. Exactly how it is with a left-handed guitarist. But here is the problem!

Your hands are symmetric! Most people are right-handed! On a piano fingers of each hand do not oppose, rther they play on one side of the layout of notes.
Therefore, piano disregards the natural symmetry of fingers from each hand! And it forces you to use your left-hand where the heavier\bass notes are on the weak fingers (pinky and ring). And after all that analysis it is evident piano is more suitable to left-handed players! But that is not all.

Pianos should be split in two tiers for each hand – where each tier has a symmetric\mirored direction of the ascending notes! And more over – because most people are right-handed – the higher notes should be on the left and the lower should be on the right tier yet for both hands notes should asscend in pitch from thumb to pinky.

All chords and phrases will have the same shape for eather hand on the respective tier. Unless you want to cross hand and play on either tier some occasional parts.

PASHKULI Your hands are symmetric! Most people are right-handed! On a piano fingers of each hand do not oppose, rther they play on one side of the layout of notes.
Therefore, piano disregards the natural symmetry of fingers from each hand! And it forces you to use your left-hand where the heavier\bass notes are on the weak fingers (pinky and ring). And after all that analysis it is evident piano is more suitable to left-handed players!

The bass parts of music usually require less dexterity. That's the nature of western music. The treble part is the one that requires more dexterity when playing most piano music. Whether the music is being played by a single person or an orchestra, the treble usually moves more. This gives right-handed pianists a huge advantage -at least early on.

If the piano keys in the bass are too hard to play for the weaker fingers, there's something wrong with the piano.

Johnstaf

Piano keys are heavier on the bass side (weight wise) as the treble ones have more percussive sound and if heavier it will be not a treble sound rather a… clack, forte clack.

What makes you think then that legato and virtuoso right-handed guitar players shold use their right hand as your logic suggests? They do not. Right handed guitar players use ther left hand to do the fretboard passes, phrases, legato flows. The right hand is picking, responsible for dynamic volume\picking\strum.

If you match that to the piano – just place your left hand and sort of try to pretend the keyboard becomes a guitar fretboard – that hand is the one that should play higher notes (from thumb to pinky).

Who ever (in History) said that piano notes should ascend from left to right? Why? What is the logic behind it?
It does make sense mostly if you are a left-handed player.

The topic itself is interesting.

Meanwhile, while I am impartial about the following (about whether they should be kept/banned), I could see why OP might’ve been banned in some forums, and it’s probably due to the posts seeming to be of business interests versus purely for sake of discussion.

Notice how the first post seemed innocent in nature and then bam— long post about what the OP has been working on. Look at the YouTube channel description where there’s info about partaking in a business venture on this effort.

I for one will be ignoring this particular thread from here on out, but wish the OP the best in their business endeavors on the product that they intend to eventually monetize.

PASHKULI Who ever (in History) said that piano notes should ascend from left to right? Why? What is the logic behind it?
It does make sense mostly if you are a left-handed player.

Your theory posses a minor dilemma:

What if I’m ambidextrous?

Doesn't seem like playing virtuosic classical repertoire would be very ergonomic or even possible on this, but that is most likely because the music is wrong, right?

Pete14

Indeed, that is why the symmetry matters! The two tier piano concept got you covered!
That is the Natural way to design such keyboard instruments. Then, if you are really ambidexterous you can swap both tiers if you feel more left-handed today.

Current one direction flow of notes makes at least one hand "not so comfy" even if you are ambidext.
Imagine an ambidext guitarist. They will have two guitar necks symmetrically (tiers) from the guitarist's body and the notes will go also that way on the neck.

Piano is badly designed in so many levels.

ambrozy:

Doesn't seem like playing virtuosic classical repertoire would be very ergonomic or even possible on this, but that is most likely because the music is wrong, right?

ambrozy

No. You have learnt it that way. Those who compose it did it the same way.
How many days\months\years it took till you been able to pull off such\any masterpiece on the "usual\standard" piano?
You have to count from the first day you got at a piano!
Be honest!

I was playing piano for over a decade before I noticed the difference in the "tail" widths.
I don't see why anyone would care. It doesn't affect me at all. So ... much ado about nothin?

MacMacMac

Good. It did affect me when I was 14. It told to me, whomever designed it – they had no idea how to do it correctly.
That's all. But it was not just one key, some digital keyboards by Yamaha and Roland had excessively wide D key.
It was obvious they were trying… to do something but couldn't. They (not brand specific) could not for 400+ years.

Guys… It is New Years Eve and this trolling has been going on for a few hours. Pop some champagne instead!

I have only watched the first video, and tomorrow I will watch the second part. So far I can't see any trolling, you seem genuinely confident about the new simmetry on every tail and head. Which you achieved, yes, but at the expense of what? Something has to give. I would be surprised if nobody thought about it before you. Now you achieved a perfect simmetry on heads and tails, but there is a new problem now: the F# is almost sitting on the middle of the entire F head, and the Bb is sitting almost entirely on the middle of B head. This is not good when you play chromatic passages, because the shift of your thumb underneath your middle finger, will encounter different distances in those two areas. So all in all, I think there is not covenience in making heads and tails perfectly simmetrical. But it was a good idea. Probably you haven't thought about the chromatic passages because as you said, you can barely play the piano. So great effort and intention anyway.

I have watched the second part. That was interesting, but again, you might get an advantage at the expence of something else. What is our priority playing piano? Glissando and fast repetition of the black key? Ehm, I would say no. If you were an advanced player you would spot quickly the flaws here. The first flaw is that with these curved black keys, you are increasing the chance of playing two or three keys at once, accidentally. The second problem is that when you need to stretch the hand span a lot (beyond one octave), you often need to push your hand forward until you litterally push the keys forward (and that's why also a cheap action will fail and get destoyed quickly by a good player), so with your curved black keys there is the risk that your stretched fingers won't meet any resistance from the the black keys, and you will end up again playing the wrong notes accidentally. But who knows, your idea might be good for those few pianists who are fixated with glissando and fast repetition with a flick. Or maybe for those with severe tendonitis. This second part is more interesting than the first, so thanks for sharing the idea.

The black keys seem to have a very short contact surface, they are reduced to mere buttons. That would make it very difficult to play various chords, especially in the rear where black and white keys are on the same level and so narrow. There’s a real reason why black and white keys on the standard keyboard are on different height levels and why they are long. That gives you a leeway for pressing the key at an angle without pushing the adjacent keys. All that advantage is removed here. Also having a curved surface would work only for plastic and non-weighted synth keys where inertia and dynamics are not very important. On a hammer-action with inertia being the main tactile feedback for your fingers to put precise dynamics, any non-level surface (curvature) would make it almost unpredictable where the key is and how much of the vertical component of the force you apply will be taken at the corresponding spot. Good luck making those wooden curvatures and plastic keytops 😃 As a matter of fact, I love the standard piano keyboard and not only find it very ergonomic, I think it’s been chosen very diligently by the keyboard builders when they came up with it. I only agree that the key size can be smaller for people with smaller hands and there are such pianos AFAIK (Hailun?). Anything more than that is too exotic and unorthodox, bringing more issues than “improvement”. I don’t want to sound harsh, but the obsession with changing what is a proven and established thing, namely the piano keyboard layout, is a bit childish, no offense. Just look at it from aside for a while. You ever heard pianists complaining about the piano keyboard design? And especially if you can barely play the piano, and getting annoyed that manufacturers didn’t care for you, sorry that’s immature.

CyberGene I only agree that the key size can be smaller for people with smaller hands….

What about people with bigger hands, can’t they get a “bigger key size”?

And while we’re at it, what about people with six fingers (per hand), what about them, do we just leave them hanging in the dark?

I also think it unfair that none of you has ever shown any consideration for people with no hands/arms at all (how dare you), and why can’t we build a keyboard that’s better suited for their toes?

I almost forgot, the people with neither hands/arms, nor legs/toes, don’t they matter? surely, we could accommodate a keyboard that allows them to play with their butts, but no, we simply push them aside, too!

You people are rude!

Pianissimo:
the F# is almost sitting on the middle of the entire F head, and the Bb is sitting almost entirely on the middle of B head. This is not good when you play chromatic passages, because the shift of your thumb underneath your middle finger, will encounter different distances in those two areas. So all in all, I think there is not convenience in making heads and tails perfectly symmetrical. But it was a good idea.

Are you sure you know what you point out as an argument of concern regarding chromatic passes?
I might not be proficient at piano playing but I know what good design is and what isn't. If you have problems (when such keyboards are there for you to try out) I will personally by you another piano of your choice.
Keep in mind that in my "flat" design above, with perfect widths, from the comparison screenshot above the renova ("octave") span (C₄ to C₅) is 127mm, where Fazioli is 164mm (a difference slightly bigger than one White Head + Black). That is why the relative corners look smaller – the "octave" is ridiculosly smaller in size ("octave" is actually what C to A is on a "standard" width). See next:

Pianissimo:
The first flaw is that with these curved black keys, you are increasing the chance of playing two or three keys at once, accidentally.
The second problem is that when you need to stretch the hand span a lot (beyond one octave), you often need to push your hand forward until you litterally push the keys forward so with your curved black keys there is the risk that your stretched fingers won't meet any resistance from the black keys, and you will end up again playing the wrong notes accidentally.

You can do that on B‑C and E‑F on your keys as well. And you have to jump over the akjacent black keys… especially on wider stretches, so… you learn to play with confidence.
With my design you can benefit from the fact that naturally fingers get positioned at an angle (most of the times) and especially… again… whin you have to do very wider stretches, so the curved profile (if you slice the key) gives you more surface and support at the same time to play the stretched note. See next:

CyberGene:
The black keys seem to have a very short contact surface, they are reduced to mere buttons. That would make it very difficult to play various chords, especially in the rear where black and white keys are on the same level and so narrow. There’s a real reason why black and white keys on the standard keyboard are on different height levels and why they are long. That gives you a leeway for pressing the key at an angle without pushing the adjacent keys. All that advantage is removed here.

Please, see above screenshots as responses to Pianissimo. You will find that angle is better and your finger has more grip (control) on the key thanks to the curved section profile.

CyberGene:
Anything more than that is too exotic and unorthodox, bringing more issues than “improvement”. I don’t want to sound harsh, but the obsession with changing what is a proven and established thing, namely the piano keyboard layout, is a bit childish, no offence. And especially if you can barely play the piano, and getting annoyed that manufacturers didn’t care for you, sorry that’s immature.

No offence but you don't know anything regarding the origin of piano keys, how black keys got introduced (one by one), etc. historically and from construction\deisign point of view. I do not blame you, there is hardly any info on this on the internet and even libraries.

For example, you might find it interesting that at some point B♭ and B were accidentals, yet both they were "big white" keys. In my almost 20+ years of research I have found pianists (pro and hobby) absolutely ignorant on what instrument they play and how it came to be as such. This "flat" design has been here for over 600 years and composers have played it and written 'piano' music for it and on it. It is normal to think "that it is better the way it is" as a pianist yourself.

@PASHKULI any chance you're the same person who used to post under the nickname of AdXok (and many other nicknames after repeated bans) some years ago on the Bulgarian Musician's Forum? He struck me as a smart person who was nevertheless obsessed with rebelling/challenging the establishment with (in my opinion) insignificant topics that were overblown and represented as very important such as renaming the notes (to be easier to sung?), the Janko keyboard layout, various tunings, tonality, harmony and whatnot, my memory is fading already. The guy had perfect grammar, well structured thought and would obviously spend a lot of (negative, IMO) energy and effort in trying to (re)educate and disrupt the establishment about all these topics instead of actually enjoying music the way most musicians do. I hope I'm not mixing it up with anyone else, but the guy even wrote a manifesto (no, luckily not on the Industrial society and its future 😉 ) or a treatise on new music or something like that. So, @PASHKULI , seeing your detailed and high quality renders of your keyboard layout, that is nevertheless ridiculous (IMO and apologies if that's offensive to you but I really think that keyboard layout is ridiculous), I got a deja vu about AdXok 🙂 BTW, I have nothing to do with his bans, I was a mod on the keyboard sub-forum and he posted a lot on the other forums too, can't remember why he was banned, since he was annoying but not offensive...

PASHKULI Please, see above screenshots as responses to Pianissimo

I don't have time to respond to that with a picture but you've missed that your finger is angled not only in the vertical plane, but also in the horizontal one (when looked from above the keyboard where your fingers will be spread like \|///), then your layout will make it difficult to not touch the adjacent keys, especially towards the rear where black and white keys are on the same plane.

But really, I don't need to argue, I just think your layout is wrong 🙂 If you like, take that as a retreat on my side, I don't care.