Yamaha NU1X "loud note" fix seems to cause another problem

TomLC Eddiepiano,: So you saved $5grand? 😆 Or will you get something else?

No, I think I have to spend more, as I'd really like to have a real acoustic action under my fingers. The real escapement makes playing much more comfortable and authentic for me. Also, although PHA-50 and GF3 are pretty nice and have longer pivots, there are in my opinion not that much better than the PHA-4 in the FP-30 (in combination with Pianoteq), I can't justify spending 2000 - 4000 € for this felt sidestep. The real next step up is an acoustic action. Sadly, there is no alternative to the NV5S/10S or N1X now. I would love to have a VPC1 like MIDI Controller in a minimalistic cabinet with a grand action, but to a more affordable price than NV10S or N1X.

spanishbuddha eddiepiano Do you have, or can you make a small video of this behaviour? Thanks

Yes, I will try to capture it. To make it as clear as possible I will try to film my fingers hitting the keys as well capture the screen and tone of Pianoteq so that one can see the MIDI values and tone and cut everything together.

RIP I am certainly not a experienced virtuoso player - although my teacher stated that I could have developed to a concert pianist if I had started as a child. 😄 I play (early) intermediate pieces at best at this moment. As good and technically clean as possible, but still. But to notice this problem I don't have to be a virtuoso, as this problem does not only occur when playing fast repeated notes but also when hitting a new note that has not already been played. As I written earlier:

porco_rosso Yes, I mean it like this. A f/ff/fff strike on a note can send the right MIDi value and sound like it's supposed to, but a f/ff/ff strike on the same note can also only send a MIDI value of 70ish and sound muffled. It can happen on any key and it can happen with or without repetition. But this disbalance between input and output only happens when striking the key hard in the f+ range, thats why I think the software/algorithm that "fixed" the loud note bug detects a supposedly "loud note" (false alarm) and softens it. It does not happen the other way around (making a softer input louder as as it is) nor are they any other irregularities with die MIDI output when playing vom ppp - mf, it's very precise. And it's also very precise in the f+ range when the algorithm isn't involved.

So it can occur randomly on any note that is played f/ff.

RIP But, Yamaha could have made lemonade out of the lemons, by making a settings for this "fix" to be implemented as different "modes". I proposed "practice" as the name for the fix "off", so you'd notice your poor technique with a loud note, and a "performance" name for the fix "on". Not sure if @eddiepiano would have tolerated the loud note issue (like I do), but at least he could have had another choice rather than simply returning the instrument.

I think I would have tolerated the loud note issue, because I have no trouble playing acoustic uprights and let the key release fully before hitting again.

RIP As for cheaper alternatives, if you have time/stamina, you could engage in the Build your own hybrid piano which is the natural next step of the Cybrid.

I am fascinated by your projects and have read the Cybrid thread, but unfortunately I don't have the technical or workmanship skills to realize a similar project.

Seems like the Yamaha fix might be too dumb and not the same as what I proposed 🙂 As @vagfilm suggested, probably they just detect high-velocity strikes and compare them to the previous note or something like that and lower the velocity. If that's the case, well, this is stupid. I hope that's not the case but it isn't impossible for Yamaha to decide that they prefer people to stop reporting the loud-note issue and instead replace it with another stupid issue that is less noticeable by the majority of people... As much as I love Yamaha, I also hate their stubbornness 🤦🏻‍♂️

P.S. If you still like the NU1X for its sound and feel but can stretch to the N1X, I believe it's just the perfect instrument where you won't have any complaints. The NV5 is slightly cheaper and I believe it has a very good upright action which won't suffer from loud note "issues". I personally am rather cold about the Kawai samples though.

CyberGene P.S. If you still like the NU1X for its sound and feel but can stretch to the N1X, I believe it's just the perfect instrument where you won't have any complaints. The NV5 is slightly cheaper and I believe it has a very good upright action which won't suffer from loud note "issues". I personally am rather cold about the Kawai samples though.

I played all hybrids several times, but mostly with headphones. JustMusic in Berlin had them all in their exhibition. Right now (I assume due to the supply problems) there is only the NU1X left.

I liked the action of the NV-10 most. It's feels exactly like many grands I played, but excellently regulated. I love that they implemented the real damper mechanism. The N1X was great too, but stiffer and harder (not necessarily heavier), so based on action alone, I would prefer the NV-10(S) over the N1X.

Regarding the NV-5 and NU1X I felt the same. I preferred the action of the NV-5 over the NU1X. The NV-5 actions felt like a more "grown" upright action with longer keysticks / pivot which made it more precise and even across the deepness of the key, regardless of playing far or near the fallboard. The NU1X felt a shorter, and again a bit shallower and stiffer. But it was good enough for me.

So action wise: NV-10 > N1X > NV-5 > NU1X

The sound system of the hybrid grands was disappointing. The NV-10 sounds boxy and the base is too strong. The N1X sounds a bit better, but not clear enough and I feel like the overall quality and resolution of the speakers is quite low.

The NV-5 was the best sounding digital piano I've ever played and closest to the experience of an acoustic piano. But the NU1X sounds really great too - both much better than their grand hybrids counterparts.

Sound system: NV-5 > NU1X > N1X > NV-10

And aesthetics: NV-5 > NU1X > NV-10 > N1X

Like you I like the CFX samples better than the SK-EX Samples. But both doesn't sound as good and organic as Pianoteq for me. As I play mostly with Pianoteq (and would use better sounding sample libraries like VSL if my computer was up to the task) this is not a deciding factor.

I also realized in the two weeks with the NU1X that even with the good sound system I practice and play most of the time with headphones because I don't want to disturb my neighbors. To play a piece for my friends and family the weaker sound systems of the grand hybrids are also good enough.

The reason why I initially decided for the NU1X were very practical. It was the most affordable hybrid with a real, good enough action, good samples and a great sound system. A Big Bonus was the integrated audio interface. I can play Pianoteq through the integrated speakers with only a single USB cable and it's a great experience, it sounds wonderful. The N1X can do this too. But as stated I play most of the time with headphones anyway. So the deciding factor for the next purchase should be the action, and I like the NV-10 actions the most. There is one problem: It's double the price of the NU1X…

Yes, seems like the NV10 has the edge with its action but some people don’t like the speaker system, @oshogg being one of its critics.

It’s a pity that Yamaha did nothing to fix the NU1X which is a great and affordable instrument that is let down by the loud note issue. If that’s not a good enough reason for them to start putting inexpensive double-repetition springs to their action, I don’t know what is.

porco_rosso although PHA-50 and GF3 are pretty nice and have longer pivots, there are in my opinion not that much better than the PHA-4 in the FP-30

Have you played the Roland LX706 and the Casio GP310?

They both have better actions than the PHA-50.

Yes. I like the Roland Hybrid Action on LX706 and LX708, it has a remarkably longer pivot than PHA-50, but it's too light for my taste. I don't like their modeling or speaker system. And they are ugly af. They could collaborate with Pianoteq in the future for a better modeling engine…

The Casio GP Action is great. It's smooth and fast, the MIDI response is very accurate. I really like that they don't have that rubbery nonsense fake escapement simulation. But I don't like the samples and the speaker system is mediocre too. Also I really don't want to spend so much money on a Casio DP. The resale value on the private secondhand is incredibly low compared to Yamaha and Kawai. I even ordered a GP510 before the NU1X but cancelled the order again.

Although both actions (and PHA-50 and GF3) are better than the PHA-4 of my FP-30, they still feel like a (very good) digital action with "attached" hammers and no real escapement. The requested 3000€ - 4000 € feel too much for me for that.

porco_rosso I really don't want to spend so much money on a Casio DP.

Yes I have no idea why they increased the price by 25% with the GP-310. The previous model GP-300 was only about USD $2,500 + tax. The only hardware change they made was the speakers, and as you say: they're still mediocre.

porco_rosso I like the Roland Hybrid Action on LX706 and LX708, it has a remarkably longer pivot than PHA-50, but it's too light for my taste. I don't like their modeling or speaker system. And they are ugly af. They could collaborate with Pianoteq in the future for a better modeling engine…

Well the good news is they're due to replace these models by about January. So if you can hold it until then perhaps Roland will bring out something spellbinding.

I'm in a similar boat - all the current models have cons.

LX706: no USB Audio, ugly cabinet, boxy sound system, dated user interface with 30 year old LCD technology

CA99 / NV5S: no USB Audio, flawed user interface with 20 year old LCD screen technology

N1X: old samples, dated user interface with 40 year old button technology

Hopefully both Yamaha and Roland lift their game next year. My budget is currently USD $10,000, but I'm not handing it over for something mediocre.

porco_rosso Regarding the NV-5 and NU1X I felt the same. I preferred the action of the NV-5 over the NU1X.

porco_rosso The NV-5 was the best sounding digital piano I've ever played and closest to the experience of an acoustic piano.

Well, then why did you buy the NU1 in the first place? Price? Go for the NV-5 and you'll be happy. Alternatively, consider something like https://www.thomannmusic.com/yamaha_b1_sc2_pe.htm which costs less than the NV-5. Even if it has the same problem as the NU1x too (which it might), you still have a fully acoustic instrument as a workaround

porco_rosso this problem does not only occur when playing fast repeated notes but also when hitting a new note that has not already been played.

That sounds like a very serious problem. If you hadn't tested other samples, I'd argue you have a defective unit.

Here is a video. Man, I really had to figure out how to film the piano and record screen and tone from Pianoteq, until then my fingers were fatigued from playing so hard repeatedly, lol. But I think I captured it well. Turn down your volume first, the video begins with a loud note.

So as you can see my ff strikes were recognized at first correctly with a Note On Midi velocity of 115 - 126. But suddenly a note - that not has been played before - was recognized only with a Note on velocity of 88, although I played with the same force. Three times in a row 88! What are the chances that I hit a key three times in a row with a velocity of 88? And the forth time I hit it it's again the correct velocity of 126. After that a little later another key is muffled - exactly at velocity output of 88… It's always 88.¹ I am sorry for writing in the first post it was 70ish, I hadn't looked it up exactly back then. As you can see it can happen randomly with every key.

Man, I really like the instrument. I played it again and the action feels so much better than my Rolands… But this is just not acceptable.

¹ Further down I tested it again. As you can see it's not always 88, but in the 80s range. So the muffled key can have a few times 88 velocity in a row, or 86, or 85… But it doesn't have to be in a row! Sometimes it only happens once. I just selected the examples with a few in a row, because it illustrates that it's definitely not the variance in my playing that causes the different velocities.

Are you sure it is always 88? And do you never see "correct" (mf) values of 88? If the engineers by any chance, reserved "88" as the midi value for notes saved from loud note, you could map all values of 88 to something like 120, and all is well... I may have a computer program just for that...

RIP Well, then why did you buy the NU1 in the first place? Price? Go for the NV-5 and you'll be happy. Alternatively, consider something like https://www.thomannmusic.com/yamaha_b1_sc2_pe.htm which costs less than the NV-5. Even if it has the same problem as the NU1x too (which it might), you still have a fully acoustic instrument as a workaround

I bought the NU1X because it was 1) 1500 € cheaper than the NV-5S (this is much money), 2) it was instantly available (for the NV-5 I might have waited many months), 3) the action was good enough for me and 4) the built-in Audio Interface is a killer feature.

I don't like the small entry Pianos of Yamaha or Kawai. If I wanted an acoustic, here in and around Berlin I have plenty excellent options for used Pianos made in Germany, private or even in stores, for very good prices. But due to my living situation I don't want one, and also not a silent piano, because I wouldn't use the acoustic instrument and would have to pay the tunings 1 - 2 times a year.

This is ugly. I’m wondering if it has something to do with the firmware update or is a more general fault with a certain piano batch. Similar to my problem with a few keys being consistently louder than the rest. But in your case it’s not consistent. Go figure.

Can you downgrade the firmware to 2.0?

vagfilm Are you sure it is always 88? And do you never see "correct" (mf) values of 88? If the engineers by any chance, reserved "88" as the midi value for notes saved from loud note, you could map all values of 88 to something like 120, and all is well... I may have a computer program just for that...

I just testet it right now:

But you are right - it's not always 88, sometimes it's 84 a few times in a row, sometimes it's 87 or 86:

It's in the whole 80 range, so the muffled key can have a few times 88 velocity in a row, or 86, or 85… But it doesn't have to be in a row! Sometimes it only happens once or twice. I just selected the examples with a few muffled notes in a row, because it illustrates that it's definitely not the variance in my playing that causes the different velocities.

So no easy workaround.

CyberGene Can you downgrade the firmware to 2.0?

Now that I agreed with the dealer to return the NU1X I will not start to mess around with the firmware. But it really would be interesting to see if the "muffled ff note issue" disappears with the return of the "loud note issue" in an older firmware, as it would prove that this problem was introduced with the "loud note detection" algorithm in the 2.1 Firmware update.

Your bug is so bizarre to be unspotted by both the engineers and by other nu1x owners (they were so quick to complain about the loud note, that should be just as quick to complain about the muffled notes...). Thus, I would not discard a problem in regulation (key bushings stucking to the front pin and reducing key velocity?), and in that sense it is also in the dealer interest to check if the firmware is indeed the cause. Talk to him, and test an older firmware.

vagfilm I don't agree.

There must be several thousand, if not ten thousands Yamaha NU1 and NU1X (plus many many Yamaha silent pianos with the same sensor) sold worldwide with the loud note issue before it was "fixed" in May 2019 with the firmware update. Although it is much more noticeable when it appears then the "muffled note issue" many engineers as well as owners didn't seem to notice it or didn't care. There a just a handful youtube videos about the loud note issue and a few of threads on pianoworld about this. In the big german clavio forum I never read about it.

When I told the dealer (a big digital piano dealer in Europe, I was talking with the boss) about the "loud note issue" that was fixed with Firmware 2.1 he didn't seem to know what I was talking about.

I think we can agree that this problem is much more subtle than a sudden loud note. I didn't even really noticed it consciously for two weeks of regular playing and practicing (1 - 2 hours everyday). And without systematic testing and Pianoteq or some other Program that can read the note On velocities I wouldn't be even 100% sure about it.

How many owners play the NU1X regularly? How many of them also play classic literature with f+ passages and not just pp - mf movie scores, minimal music or Einaudi, Yiruma, Tiessen (I don't mean this disrespectful, I like this music too)? And how many of them have access to a program to read the note on velocities of the instrument if they noticed subtle irregularity sometimes in playing? I think you also know how many pianos, even newer ones, are in awful condition, untuned, unregulated at homes because no one really plays them or cares.

I am happy that I noticed it within the 30 days of unconditional return window. I payed a good amount of money for this instrument and I really don't wanna have a months long odyssey with service technicians not able to solve the problem. And I don't want to support Yamaha for this messed up design with a missing hammer sensor, although they are aware of the shortcomings. The dealer can deal with it if he wants.

If it was the key bushings reducing the key velocity, why on earth would it result in five times in a row exactly the same note on velocity? And only effect the velocities when played in the ff range?

porco_rosso I really don't wanna have a months long odyssey with service technicians not able to solve the problem. And I don't want to support Yamaha for this messed up design.

Fully agree with both things...

porco_rosso And only effect the velocities when played in the ff range?

On this you are completely correct, and I was not thinking it through... Well... Back to the dealer it goes. One more argument for DIY hybrid pianos...

porco_rosso Hmmm.. I've spent a while now, several times, power cycling in between, different parts of the key range, different piano voices, on my NU1, not NU1X, with the loud note firmware, and cannot reproduce this!

Will try again tomorrow, but worried about hurting my fingers.

Any other NU1 or NU1X owners care to try as well and report back?