porco_rosso I really don't want to spend so much money on a Casio DP.
Yes I have no idea why they increased the price by 25% with the GP-310. The previous model GP-300 was only about USD $2,500 + tax. The only hardware change they made was the speakers, and as you say: they're still mediocre.
porco_rosso I like the Roland Hybrid Action on LX706 and LX708, it has a remarkably longer pivot than PHA-50, but it's too light for my taste. I don't like their modeling or speaker system. And they are ugly af. They could collaborate with Pianoteq in the future for a better modeling engine…
Well the good news is they're due to replace these models by about January. So if you can hold it until then perhaps Roland will bring out something spellbinding.
I'm in a similar boat - all the current models have cons.
LX706: no USB Audio, ugly cabinet, boxy sound system, dated user interface with 30 year old LCD technology
CA99 / NV5S: no USB Audio, flawed user interface with 20 year old LCD screen technology
N1X: old samples, dated user interface with 40 year old button technology
Hopefully both Yamaha and Roland lift their game next year. My budget is currently USD $10,000, but I'm not handing it over for something mediocre.
porco_rosso Regarding the NV-5 and NU1X I felt the same. I preferred the action of the NV-5 over the NU1X.
porco_rosso The NV-5 was the best sounding digital piano I've ever played and closest to the experience of an acoustic piano.
Well, then why did you buy the NU1 in the first place? Price? Go for the NV-5 and you'll be happy. Alternatively, consider something like https://www.thomannmusic.com/yamaha_b1_sc2_pe.htm which costs less than the NV-5. Even if it has the same problem as the NU1x too (which it might), you still have a fully acoustic instrument as a workaround
porco_rosso this problem does not only occur when playing fast repeated notes but also when hitting a new note that has not already been played.
That sounds like a very serious problem. If you hadn't tested other samples, I'd argue you have a defective unit.
Here is a video. Man, I really had to figure out how to film the piano and record screen and tone from Pianoteq, until then my fingers were fatigued from playing so hard repeatedly, lol. But I think I captured it well. Turn down your volume first, the video begins with a loud note.
So as you can see my ff strikes were recognized at first correctly with a Note On Midi velocity of 115 - 126. But suddenly a note - that not has been played before - was recognized only with a Note on velocity of 88, although I played with the same force. Three times in a row 88! What are the chances that I hit a key three times in a row with a velocity of 88? And the forth time I hit it it's again the correct velocity of 126. After that a little later another key is muffled - exactly at velocity output of 88… It's always 88.1 I am sorry for writing in the first post it was 70ish, I hadn't looked it up exactly back then. As you can see it can happen randomly with every key.
Man, I really like the instrument. I played it again and the action feels so much better than my Rolands… But this is just not acceptable.
1 Further down I tested it again. As you can see it's not always 88, but in the 80s range. So the muffled key can have a few times 88 velocity in a row, or 86, or 85… But it doesn't have to be in a row! Sometimes it only happens once. I just selected the examples with a few in a row, because it illustrates that it's definitely not the variance in my playing that causes the different velocities.
Are you sure it is always 88? And do you never see "correct" (mf) values of 88? If the engineers by any chance, reserved "88" as the midi value for notes saved from loud note, you could map all values of 88 to something like 120, and all is well... I may have a computer program just for that...
RIP Well, then why did you buy the NU1 in the first place? Price? Go for the NV-5 and you'll be happy. Alternatively, consider something like https://www.thomannmusic.com/yamaha_b1_sc2_pe.htm which costs less than the NV-5. Even if it has the same problem as the NU1x too (which it might), you still have a fully acoustic instrument as a workaround
I bought the NU1X because it was 1) 1500 € cheaper than the NV-5S (this is much money), 2) it was instantly available (for the NV-5 I might have waited many months), 3) the action was good enough for me and 4) the built-in Audio Interface is a killer feature.
I don't like the small entry Pianos of Yamaha or Kawai. If I wanted an acoustic, here in and around Berlin I have plenty excellent options for used Pianos made in Germany, private or even in stores, for very good prices. But due to my living situation I don't want one, and also not a silent piano, because I wouldn't use the acoustic instrument and would have to pay the tunings 1 - 2 times a year.
This is ugly. I’m wondering if it has something to do with the firmware update or is a more general fault with a certain piano batch. Similar to my problem with a few keys being consistently louder than the rest. But in your case it’s not consistent. Go figure.
Can you downgrade the firmware to 2.0?
vagfilm Are you sure it is always 88? And do you never see "correct" (mf) values of 88? If the engineers by any chance, reserved "88" as the midi value for notes saved from loud note, you could map all values of 88 to something like 120, and all is well... I may have a computer program just for that...
I just testet it right now:
But you are right - it's not always 88, sometimes it's 84 a few times in a row, sometimes it's 87 or 86:
It's in the whole 80 range, so the muffled key can have a few times 88 velocity in a row, or 86, or 85… But it doesn't have to be in a row! Sometimes it only happens once or twice. I just selected the examples with a few muffled notes in a row, because it illustrates that it's definitely not the variance in my playing that causes the different velocities.
So no easy workaround.
CyberGene Can you downgrade the firmware to 2.0?
Now that I agreed with the dealer to return the NU1X I will not start to mess around with the firmware. But it really would be interesting to see if the "muffled ff note issue" disappears with the return of the "loud note issue" in an older firmware, as it would prove that this problem was introduced with the "loud note detection" algorithm in the 2.1 Firmware update.
Your bug is so bizarre to be unspotted by both the engineers and by other nu1x owners (they were so quick to complain about the loud note, that should be just as quick to complain about the muffled notes...). Thus, I would not discard a problem in regulation (key bushings stucking to the front pin and reducing key velocity?), and in that sense it is also in the dealer interest to check if the firmware is indeed the cause. Talk to him, and test an older firmware.
vagfilm I don't agree.
There must be several thousand, if not ten thousands Yamaha NU1 and NU1X (plus many many Yamaha silent pianos with the same sensor) sold worldwide with the loud note issue before it was "fixed" in May 2019 with the firmware update. Although it is much more noticeable when it appears then the "muffled note issue" many engineers as well as owners didn't seem to notice it or didn't care. There a just a handful youtube videos about the loud note issue and a few of threads on pianoworld about this. In the big german clavio forum I never read about it.
When I told the dealer (a big digital piano dealer in Europe, I was talking with the boss) about the "loud note issue" that was fixed with Firmware 2.1 he didn't seem to know what I was talking about.
I think we can agree that this problem is much more subtle than a sudden loud note. I didn't even really noticed it consciously for two weeks of regular playing and practicing (1 - 2 hours everyday). And without systematic testing and Pianoteq or some other Program that can read the note On velocities I wouldn't be even 100% sure about it.
How many owners play the NU1X regularly? How many of them also play classic literature with f+ passages and not just pp - mf movie scores, minimal music or Einaudi, Yiruma, Tiessen (I don't mean this disrespectful, I like this music too)? And how many of them have access to a program to read the note on velocities of the instrument if they noticed subtle irregularity sometimes in playing? I think you also know how many pianos, even newer ones, are in awful condition, untuned, unregulated at homes because no one really plays them or cares.
I am happy that I noticed it within the 30 days of unconditional return window. I payed a good amount of money for this instrument and I really don't wanna have a months long odyssey with service technicians not able to solve the problem. And I don't want to support Yamaha for this messed up design with a missing hammer sensor, although they are aware of the shortcomings. The dealer can deal with it if he wants.
If it was the key bushings reducing the key velocity, why on earth would it result in five times in a row exactly the same note on velocity? And only effect the velocities when played in the ff range?
porco_rosso I really don't wanna have a months long odyssey with service technicians not able to solve the problem. And I don't want to support Yamaha for this messed up design.
Fully agree with both things...
porco_rosso And only effect the velocities when played in the ff range?
On this you are completely correct, and I was not thinking it through... Well... Back to the dealer it goes. One more argument for DIY hybrid pianos...
porco_rosso Hmmm.. I've spent a while now, several times, power cycling in between, different parts of the key range, different piano voices, on my NU1, not NU1X, with the loud note firmware, and cannot reproduce this!
Will try again tomorrow, but worried about hurting my fingers.
Any other NU1 or NU1X owners care to try as well and report back?
spanishbuddha OK I've had another go, fresh Sunday morning. With pedal, without pedal, legato, staccato, block chords, broken chords, scales, hanon, same note, adjacent notes, thirds, etc, but I cannot reproduce this at all. If I want a louder note, I get it every time up to my maximum arm/finger strength.
Either it's NU1X only problem, or there's another parameter to be factored in, or the instruments you tried are (batch) defective or ….?
spanishbuddha Thanks for testing! That's interesting. It may be an only NU1X issue, maybe due to some changes in the sensor?
Or it could be a batch defect. But I'm not sure about this. The NU1X at JustMusic seems much older and the action felt more worn down. It is definitely there since at least last year.
spanishbuddha Either it's NU1X only problem, or there's another parameter to be factored in, or the instruments you tried are (batch) defective or ….?
porco_rosso Or it could be a batch defect. But I'm not sure about this. The NU1X at JustMusic seems much older and the action felt more worn down. It is definitely there since at least last year.
I have the NU1 too, but as I said I did not install the anti-loud-note firmware, so I can't test it, but I can speculate.
As @porco_rosso and @vagfilm discussed and eventually agreed, there is no way that this is related with the mechanics. This must be software. Since it is not happening on @spanishbuddha instrument and (weaker argument, I know) it is not discussed anywhere but this thread in this forum, I speculate that it's something relatively new in the last iteration of the firmware. Do we know for sure the version of the firmware that's installed? Do we know when was it released? Can you find someone someone else with and older version of the firmware to look at the checksum and see if Yamaha has changed the content without changing the version number?
Wait, on this latter point I can help 😁 I have a zip file of the firmware which I downloaded on May 21st (2019) and the corresponding PRG that's inside shows an April 10 of the same year. Here are the MD5 checksums:
f212c34948b2aadff389448ffce21a87 firmware/NU1x_firmware/nu1x_v210.zip
6ff06fc16ff4f387e98e48f473e3809a firmware/NU1x_firmware/NU1XSETUP.PRG
The vendor firmware page has been updated before November 2020, according to the internet archive's records: https://web.archive.org/web/2020\*/https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/nu1x_firm.html
The internet archive sadly does not have the firmware binary cached (because you need to accept terms and conditions to download it), however the version "live" on Yamaha's website is identical to mine. Same story with Europe's version of Yamaha's website. Sleuthing a bit in the internet archived versions of the USA's version of the website, one reaches a roadblock: the oldest mention of the NU1x has been archived in Sept 2017 but the more details about the instrument was cached on in August 2018 and most relevant for this discussion the firmware page was not cached at all ☹️ until few minutes ago when I nudged such caching. I did not check the Europe's website, leaving that fun to you, let alone the Japanese one which might be the best shot.
Someone commented under my youtube video:
I have the same problem with my NU1X.
RIP I am not sure if I can follow you. 😅 I know that it's the 2.10 firmware that is installed on my NU1X.
porco_rosso delvento I am not sure if I can follow you. 😅 I know that it's the 2.10 firmware that is installed on my NU1X.
Sorry for being complicated. I just described all I did to investigate when this firmware was released and if there was an older one to find online. The tl;dr; version is no (unless you reach out to fellow hoarders like me on the other two or three forums and see if one has the v2.0 firmware and is able to test it out).
RIP Ah ok, I see.
The other NU1X owner with the same problem answered und the video.
my NU1X is form April 2021. It was a big effort for my local piano provider, but because it's the biggest store in my country, the've managed to receive the piano (even if there is/was a global production chip problem). I am sure the problem is specific tu NU1X and also N1X, but I personally would never go back to a digital piano. So even if it is no perfect, I will stau with my hybrid or buy in the future a real upright/grnd with silent system. I want to buy an audio interface an use VST files... I hope I will get rod of the NU1X's own sound problems.
So April 2021 and October 2020, would be a pretty big batch if it was only a problem specific to a batch of NU1Xs. 😅
