Build your own hybrid piano - step two, the cabinet

RIP · 2021-10-30T20:03:01+00:00

If you haven't already seen step one, rectify that by choosing the action Ok, so for the cabinet you have three options: Go naked (I'll refrain from fishing jokes as well as from physics nerd ones). Salvage the same cabinet of the acoustic the action came from Build a new cabinet from scratch. The first option is the easy: you basically do nothing, perhaps get a table or something of suitable size, sturdiness and height. @CyberGene could comment on this since it's his route. Perhaps Jay can too, since that's his choice also, AFAIK. Perfectly fine for man's cave setup and perhaps a few homes, but I think some (most?) people, by their own choice or by family requirements, will need something nicer-looking for the living room. I considered the third option hard. You can either start from scratch, you can outsource the most complex parts to some CNC wood working companies (there are plenty of them), or you can start from a different cabinet than the one the action came from, for example this one which I was really surprised to find for sale and so relatively inexpensive (including shipping to USA and Europe). In my opinion this option is too hard. There are to many parts that need very good fit, they are large, they need to be very thick (especially the keyboard bed, where the keyboard lay) to avoid bending… Not to mention long term warping. So instead I went with option 2 and I will provide more pictures in a moment, but let me instead mention the steps I took if you want to follow them. For an upright, I think the only option is to keep the cabinet as is (besides refinishing), because even removing the plate/harp is too hard, let alone trying to modify the size. For a grand, of course you can keep the cabinet as is, but at least you should remove the plate/harp. Don't do it yourself, let the people who you'll need to hire for moving it do it for you, but you may remove the strings for them to make their job easier (and hence cheaper). Take in mind that there are about 200 strings, and removing them will take at least one minute each, so plan accordingly. Remove the action, cheekblocks, fallboard/keylid. Wear eyes, ear and good gloves when doing so, otherwise you risk serious injury 😡 and take the strings out. The copper ones might be recycled (copper is very expensive) depending on your local options. Have the movers remove the lid, then the plate/harp. Once the plate/harp is out, you can "chop" the tail off with a circular saw. Of course the piano needs to be on its side, otherwise it will fall while "chopping". With the tail, you can either use it for something like this (see how expensive it is? you can make money 🤣 ) or donate/recycle. The plate/harp is cast iron, so it can be recycled too, but leave that business to the movers. Keep all the three legs, the lyre for the pedals and at least the "fly" (front part of the lid), if not the whole lid. Then you have to decide how you want the instrument to look. I initially decided "grand-like" as the Yamaha N1/N2 or kawai NV10, then changed my mind and opted for "upright". So I will build an underneath of that shape.

RIP

DPPianoPhil Color me (very) impressed!

🤩

DPPianoPhil Is that an old iMac with the score on top?

Yes, mid-2007 era 😮️! Running Linux (hence the Apple logo has been covered). Too slow for Mac OS now, fine with Linux. I have a Bluetooth mouse-and-keyboard app in my phone, so no clutter around 😎

DPPianoPhil Will you use that to play the VSTs?

Perhaps. Have to see how it performs. Might be too slow (even with the extra memory and disk which were installed in its middle age). Hope it does well because I don't want to spend money for something else (and having a monitor for a hidden desktop will increase the number of cables, as I am discussing at https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/280-cable-management/12 ) -- course I could buy another all-in-one… but I'd rather squeeze everything from what I have first

DPPianoPhil And will you build speakers into that cabinet (and take advantage of that old wood resonance) or have them sit on top?

Ahaha! You did not get the Pink Panther hint eh? No speakers on top. The plan is DMLs in the bottom as hinted at https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/200-upright-piano-speaker-simulator-addon-idea and partially visible in these pictures. Just because I can, I will probably try to use the cabinet with the same exciters, but I don't expect it to be anything worth it. If DMLs alone turn out unsatisfactory, I'll investigate other options. Inside the cabinet there isn't much room, because the action and the electronics take almost all of it. In the bottom (where I plan to add more DMLs and make it look a bit "close" like an upright) I could place some short floorstanding speakers. We'll see.

DPPianoPhil Again, congrats: you should be very proud (and even prouder when the electronics are in as well)!

Thanks! 😏️

DPPianoPhil

RIP Ahaha! You did not get the Pink Panther hint eh? No speakers on top. The plan is DMLs in the bottom as hinted at https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/200-upright-piano-speaker-simulator-addon-idea and partially visible in these pictures.

Ah! You got me. I meant to click on that link (and indeed it would have reminded me of your interest in the transducers and flat speakers), but I must have had a "senior moment" and after watching the video, I… ummm…. forgot! 😅

ETA: And thanks for the other answers. If you go the Pianoteq route (perhaps you don't like it, I can't recall right now who does and who does not, except for Mac³ who has been very clear on the subject, lol), perhaps you could mount the Raspberry Pi module inside the cabinet, and control it remotely via iPhone or iPad with VNC?

Pete14

Wow, what a beauty!

I’m sorry, but neither the N1X nor the NV-10 look this classy and elegant.

The N1X wants to be a box and a circle at the same time; the NV-10 has nice curves, but somehow seems a little over-done. Delvento’s hybrid is just the right amount of everything!

P.S.

I forgot to mention the Petrof ‘MIDI piano’; I’ve always liked that design, also very classy, but Petrof never brought that piano back. I’m hoping they release a new version (with speakers); and honestly, I’m surprised they haven’t done so yet; considering the appeal of hybrids.

vagfilm

I am impressed and envyous. Very nice. Congratulations. Now it only needs to produce sound...

JayKominek

RIP you basically do nothing, perhaps get a table or something of suitable size, sturdiness and height. @CyberGene could comment on this since it's his route. Perhaps Jay can too, since that's his choice also

My long-term plan is actually your #3. I expect I'll end up with an enclosure that looks like a slightly more functional version of the VPC1, whenever I make it there, in the distant future. Until then, it just lives in my office, where nobody else gets a vote on aesthetics. 🙂

I've got my action mounted onto a frame made of 40x40 and 40x80 extrusions, held together with a number of hefty bolts. That basically acts as the key bed, and I believe it is rigid enough I can do anything I want underneath of it, and the action should be unaffected.

RIP but at least you should remove the plate/harp. Don't do it yourself

I did this myself. I wouldn't encourage it.

RIP And finally, the current status:

Lovely work.

David B

RIP My Cybrid is livingroom worthy!

Wonderful! You should feel very proud with the way it turned out.

RIP I really like how the professional enamel finish ended up being. Very close to classic "ebony polish" look: shiny and smooth.

Really nice, but the real questions is, how will it look after a nice coat of wax? 😀

God Bless,
David

RIP

JayKominek I did this myself. I wouldn't encourage it.

I saw your video doing it. You used quite a few nice tricks, including the car (!) which I doubt anyone else (especially folks in Europe) would use for this purpose. Do you still have the grand cabinet? If so, I'll be happy to help you making it become something like mine (if you change your mind about your choice)

David B Wonderful!

JayKominek Lovely work.

vagfilm I am impressed and envyous.

Pete14 Wow, what a beauty!

Thanks guys. In fact I like a lot how it turned out, and I hope to inspire, like @CyberGene did for the electronics, other people on what is possible with minimal woodworking, especially considering how it was starting (first pictures I posted in this thread) which is probably the worse than anybody would face.

JayKominek

RIP Do you still have the grand cabinet? If so, I'll be happy to help you making it become something like mine (if you change your mind about your choice)

I do, I kept all of the pieces, through the harp was drug off to one of my parents' barns. I believe they plan to clean it up, clear coat it for rust resistance, and prop it up on display on their property.

TomLC

RIP What an amazing accomplishment!

Deleted

Congratulations to your build!

RIP No speakers on top. The plan is DMLs in the bottom as hinted at https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/200-upright-piano-speaker-simulator-addon-idea and partially visible in these pictures. Just because I can, I will probably try to use the cabinet with the same exciters, but I don't expect it to be anything worth it. If DMLs alone turn out unsatisfactory, I'll investigate other options. Inside the cabinet there isn't much room, because the action and the electronics take almost all of it. In the bottom (where I plan to add more DMLs and make it look a bit "close" like an upright) I could place some short floorstanding speakers. We'll see.

Having no speakers inside this cabinet would be a missed opportunity. And once you have them, please record the whole thing, even if it's just with a phone.

If VST samples turn out unusable in a cabinet setup - these aren't intended to be used in such a way, so don't blame VST flaws on your speaker setup - there is still the option to go with a traditional DP MIDI extender: Dexibell has them.

RIP

Deleted Having no speakers inside this cabinet would be a missed opportunity.

Thank you for your suggestion.

If by "cabinet" you mean the actual "enclosure", that volume is already 80% + filled with the action and once I have all the electronics, cabling, sensors, and rails to hold them, it will be close to 95% filled (don't have the specs on all of that). So what you call "missed opportunity" is either impossible or a "missed opportunity to place really tiny speakers in the only location available which may be acoustically inappropriate". Perhaps it won't be that bad with tweeters, but I assume you are talking of midrange and woofers instead.

On the other hand, if by "cabinet" you mean the "bottom", as you can see from the pictures and video, there is no "enclosure". I could make one on each side (leaving an empty part in the middle for the pedals) but that will be practically equivalent of building a pair of floorstanding speakers of a size which fits that location, and logistically that is much better (ease of construction, ease of installing, ease of move). So I might do that if the DML turn out disappointing, which they might given that their dimensions are also forced by the location of their installation -- and preliminary tests are not so good as with the 2'x2' square piece.

Deleted a traditional DP MIDI extender

That is interesting, years ago I was looking for something like that and I was unable to find anything like that, besides a few cheap ones on Amazon with no reviews.

For the time being, I think I will give PTQ a good shot, since it's supposed to be designed mostly to be played live, and in the tests which we run at https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/290-virtual-piano-comparison I actually liked it best than many others. If that is disappointing, I might give Garritan a try too. Only failing these options, I would consider the device which you suggest, which is good to know is an option, but a bit steep in price (compared to using some computer hardware I have, obviously if one has to budget a new computer, then the vivo is inexpensive).

Thanks again for the discussion and the congratulations 😃

Deleted

RIP If by "cabinet" you mean the actual "enclosure", that volume is already 80% + filled with the action and once I have all the electronics, cabling, sensors, and rails to hold them, it will be close to 95% filled (don't have the specs on all of that). So what you call "missed opportunity" is either impossible or a "missed opportunity to place really tiny speakers in the only location available which may be acoustically inappropriate". Perhaps it won't be that bad with tweeters, but I assume you are talking of midrange and woofers instead.

Full-range speakers might suit piano more than tweeters and woofers. But yes, you have actual cabinet suitable of properly projecting acoustic piano sound and completely filling that up with electronics is what I see as "missed opportunity".

RIP Only failing these options, I would consider the device which you suggest, which is good to know is an option, but a bit steep in price (compared to using some computer hardware I have, obviously if one has to budget a new computer, then the vivo is inexpensive).

The VIVO pricing is pretty appropriate for a hybrid piano build - you don't fire that with a Casio engine. It won't work out of the box in such a setup either, don't underestimate the audio skills required to build an actually well-sounding digital piano. However unlike Garritan CFX only providing various pre-mixed microphone positions, which are completely useless for cabinet use, Pianoteq Standard might give you enough settings to generate an appropriate audio input for a DIY cabinet amplification. Standard DP tone generators do too, though they might not expose all the processing settings to the end-user.

RIP

Deleted Full-range speakers might suit piano more than tweeters and woofers. But yes, you have actual cabinet suitable of properly projecting acoustic piano sound and completely filling that up with electronics is what I see as "missed opportunity".

I understand you point. However that is unfortunately impossible with the cabinet I have, as I describe below. It may be a good suggestion for the next person following my footsteps. I guess that's the nice thing of such a project in that every person embarking into it can find some ways to improve the predecessor.

I am not using the cabinet as a storage box for some random electronics and some acoustic piano action. I do need both of them to create the MIDI data driving the sound module. I am sure you totally agree wrt the action. For the electronics, I could probably migrate some parts elsewhere, but the vast majority (sensors, sensor rail, ADC) must stay there (the path from the sensors to the ADC must be short, otherwise noise will be picked). Then I either keep additional electronics there (e.g. computing modules to make use of the ADC raw data to create MIDI values) or I make a whole mess of cabling routing the ADC data to the computing modules located elsewhere. The latter won't provide any additional space in the cabinet.

If I were designing the cabinet from scratch, I could have made it taller and I could have the needed space, but as I described I was using what I had, and making it taller would have been a whole lot more of work (plus, I did not think about it, see previous comment about incremental improvements by each person embarking in this project).

RIP

Thanks again everybody, and now let's "close" this thread and instead continue to the next steps, which are in full swing at the following links:

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/276-build-your-own-hybrid-piano-step-three-the-electronics

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/289-scanning-speed-and-velocity-mapping-of-cybrid

Please no further replies, so the link to the next threads remain the last post to this conversation, for future comers to "find" their path.

RIP

In the absence of updates on the electronics or other more juicy things, and given that I had to spend a lot of time moving things through the house since the kids wanted to play the game of 15 with all the bedrooms (and my office!) in the home, here is something to prove I'm not dead (yet 🤣).

The piano in its final location, including speakers and ampli (I don't think I ever posted a picture in such a configuration, regardless of location)

SouthPark

RIP Looks excellent.

HZPiano

@RIP WOW!

RIP

Thanks to both, guys!

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