Modern D vs Pianoteq vs The People

RIP · 2024-10-05T13:59:24+00:00

As a Sunday clacker (note1) here are my impressions: Modern D may be very good, perhaps even "the ultimate" VST, but it's not for me because it does not have a demo and because I'm fed up with both Mac and Windows computers and I would accept only a Linux version or a tablet (don't say they don't have enough storage or CPU, since some of them have more storage or CPU than my desktop). And by the way, I wonder how this compares with @dore_m Experience pianos rather than the others you mentioned. @David Lai you might tell them this feedback (Linux/Tablet and giving demo) if you care. WRT the demo, some people would say "you can't download 18GB for a demo", so let me pre-emtively respond: a) my download speed allows that pretty easily, and I'm on the cheaper/slower tier of my internet provider, and the vendor could put it on a peer-to-peer network if they can't afford the extra load on their servers b) I would be happy to entertain a demo with say only half the keys working for 9GB, even more "crippled" than the pianoteq demo. Some people love, some people hate Pianoteq. A few (or maybe a lot, but they "look like" they are a few simply because they are just not vocal?) like it for what it is or at least can live with it. I am in the latter category. I agree with what most (or are they just the most vocal?) people on this forum say, i.e. that the sound is unsatisfactory. But then everything else that I could try with a demo or soundcloud recordings (excluding Modern D which I did not have time to listen to) has an unsatisfactory sound too. Each one sound is unsatisfactory in a different way, so I picked the one that I could live with, and which I like for other characteristics (I like its user interface a lot, again, not perfect but much better than others that I tried, it runs on Linux, both Intel and ARM) and policies (I love that they have a demo, which I used to make my mind before deciding to buy it). If you can't live (and let live) with the previous bullet, I'm very sorry for you and I'm not going to engage in a live and let die thread Speaking of which, I'm really appalled to see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of messages on the Modern D and Pianoteq so devoid of useful content (heck, even devoid of useful opinions!). Well, I'm sure there is some useful content in there, but it's so buried in repeated and repeated and repeated attacks to each other's point of view that makes me really wonder if you guys have a life. I mean we somewhat drove off the site KFB and SP because they flooded the forum with lots of repetitive comments and then we do it ourselves? What a shame! I think this is just a self-feeding trolling, from which we have no way out until "the world will explode" as somewhat I said already so I won't repeat myself (note2) (note1): in Italian, a very common derogatory way of addressing people that do something at a very low level only when they have time, the dictionary says it's the same in English, but I've never heard it in 20 years - so note that I am purposefully insulting myself (note2): that conversation was about an off-topic politics discussion and this is on-topic, but I see the same attitude and it sadden me in the same way, and mutatis mutande I feel about these new threads exactly I expressed at the time, e.g. at the link below. https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/1021-thats-called-whoopin-your-ass/36

pianow

David Lai
which vsl piano have you tried? yk except concert d because that one is just awful and obviously no challenger for the moder d
i'm interested 🙂
if i was to choose a synchron now (a single piano from their lineup) that would be the imperial.

pianow

HeartKeys yep. after my previous comment, I went back to VSL, and then toyed with the MIDI sensitivity settings. it did sound better. But ultimately, the time and energy spent on making tweaks doesn't excite me.

yea one of the very annoying things about synchron is that you need to spend a lot of time carving them into their best (and not just pianos, all of their products have that to a certain amount)

HeartKeys on another note-- I'm currently using my wife's computer (we switched), because it's an older one. a 2017 Mac (i gave her my M3 iMac, which is overall way faster). so I re-installed VSL into my current 2017 iMac.... and....

... it can only handle the standard mics. as soon as I put in the extra mics, the cracks/pops goes crazy. Even sometimes the standard mics.

it's a little disappointing to see they don't fully work on a 2017 mac cause a machine like that would eat vsts for fun,

HeartKeys With Modern D, I've had no issues (in terms of getting satisfactory sound and playing, without computational challenges).

Which suggests to me, that Modern D is more efficient in its algorithms/coding/instructions/efficiency or whatever it's called, than the VSL software.

they did a fantastic job with their sampling IMO, all the necessary stuff are there and nothing is exaggerated, you have enough samples per note, enough mics and everything and they were smart enough to use normalization on samples so they could use 16bit audio and that i believe is one of the very important thing that makes this piano such a small vst.

HeartKeys So for that reason, Modern D currently is my go-to. I won't be surprised though, in a few years, something comes out, whether VI, or VSL or some other maker, that blows Modern D out of the water as well. it only continues to get better, and I'm grateful we're at this advanced stage of VST technology!

if i wanna speak from experience then i'd say only vilabs people themselves can do that 🙂 and yea... it's an incredible time to be into music.

HeartKeys ps my wish list then, would be, for VI Labs to create a similarly capable software, of the Bechstein D282; Bosendorfer Imperial and 280VC; and a Mason & Hamlin.

damn it, especially the d282, that piano is very underrated in the sampling world, but i donno how they're going to name it... another modern d? haha
and if they decide to sample an imperial i would buy it in seconds, or even a yamaha cfx (oi @VILabs )
but as far as i know it'll take "THEM" half of century to do all that 🙂 and that's ok cause their standards are quite high.

pipAT

They could create a new series that has less limits for further development. Sampletekk created 4Knob piano series, 4Knob PopD, 4Knob Upright, etc. Synthogy brought in the third generation of Ivory. Toontrack divided drum libs into EZdrummer and Superior Drummer series. NI had Akoustik Pianos series, Classic Pianos series, Definitive Pianos series and several individual piano products. I wish VIlabs could do a Kawai EXPro because Kawai sampled pianos are hard to see. There have been only a few ones over the past 20 years as we know. I have seen five Kawai piano vis, ie Tascam CVPiano, Emotional piano, Acousticsamples Kawai EX, PV Estate Grand Piano, and recently Kawai Legend. There are more Steinway D, Boesendorfer 290 and Yamaha C7 than Kawai, Bechstein and Steingraeber.

Some pianos vis like Noire, Keyscape etc. tend to be favored by producers. Some vis like Garritan CFX, VIlabs, Pianoteq, etc. tend to be favored by pianists or piano players. Some vis like VSL and Synthogy Ivory are welcomed by both producers and pianists. There are many possibilities for future products.

jdg78

HeartKeys ps my wish list then, would be, for VI Labs to create a similarly capable software, of the Bechstein D282; Bosendorfer Imperial and 280VC; and a Mason & Hamlin.

Agree, 100%. I really hope they keep going and release more models (though hopefully at a somewhat faster clip than before). They seem to have cracked the software side of it better than anyone else, and could really give the VSL Synchron series a run for its money if they had a similar lineup of instruments.

David Lai

pianow which vsl piano have you tried?

Just the Steinway. But I've heard others, and they didn't really work with me. The 280 VC is too bright, like the Steinway, the Imperial is alright, but no una corda drove me away.

pianow

jdg78 Agree, 100%. I really hope they keep going and release more models (though hopefully at a somewhat faster clip than before

i have a feeling that this modern thing is going to be a series and the other ones will come out a lot faster then we would think, maybe they're planning to release a piano every year now, idk why i feel that way but it's a possibility that makes the most sense to me.

jdg78 and could really give the VSL Synchron series a run for its money if they had a similar lineup of instruments

agreed their steinway is ten times better then the vsl's, but that doesn't count cause vsl steinway is one of worst sounding steinways ever at least in my opinion (which i know that I'm not alone with)
i wanna see how much better or comparable their bosy imperial (for example) is going to be
cause i think that's the best vsl piano to date and one of the best virtual piano ever (i also prefer the tone of the syn imperial to the modern d, but the feature set of the modern d to all other virtual pianos)

pianow

David Lai
interesting, I'd say if someone is interested in vsl lineup the only pianos that I'd get are the bosy imperial and the bosy 130 upright
my third choice is the f308
but yea... no una corda and resonance modeling makes thems a bit weird especially at that price point (600$💀)
i never understood why they do these things:
1 they don't prepare the instrument at all (tuning and regulation)
2 they have a sampling robot but they only record sus up/down samples (it's so easy for them to sample una corda but they won't)
3 they don't care about improving their existing lineup which is quite significant, even very small features like silent key (which i know for a fact that would take 5 minutes of their time to implement)

Pete14

pianow agreed their steinway is ten times better then the vsl's….

Once again, let’s keep things civil, but I do wonder, how did you come to this conclusion, “ten times better”?

Was this number chosen arbitrarily, or did you do the proper measurements to arrive at this number (10)?

It could very well be that your calculations are correct, but we simply need verification, and it’s not that I don’t trust you, but you know how the saying goes…..”trust but verify.”

Have a great day!

pianow

Pete14
alright I'll play but i warn you without having experience with at least one of them, you wouldn't fully understand what I mean.

1 it's rounder (which is the exact opposite of the vsl steinway, that one is sharp and cold as a knife)
2 it's darker (makes it easier to listen to without being fatigued)
3 it has excellent timbre (unlike vsl i doesn't sound thin and weak in the ppp range and doesn't sound hard and metallic in the fortes)
4 it's more cohesive (vsl steinway samples are all over the place)
5 it's more enjoyable overall
6 the resonances make it much fuller
7 the voicing is good for most genres (vsl is only good for classical)
8 its tuning is perfect
9 it's a lot dryer so you can put it in any arrangement
10 it sounds like a real steinway d

and i think this combination worth more then 10 times.

pianow

David Lai The 280 VC is too bright, like the Steinway

if i may, the 280vc sounds nothing like their steinway and that's why i hate their demos and presets, they make everything sound harsh and annoying
the 280vc is bright but also has excellent weight and impact, the fundamentals are heavy and warm, rhe basic tone is quite rounded unless you reach the FF range

the Vsl steinway on the other hand sounds empty, thin, bright and cold throughout all the velocities

it's in my opinion not fair to even compare these two

pipAT

Not only modelled pianos, there are modelled guitars from MusicLab, modelled drums and basses from IK, modelled eps from AAS, modelled strings, brasses, woodwinds from Audio Modeling. They share PTQ's strong points and weak points, surely have many fans but haven't convinced many producers yet. Most producers still prefer sampled libraries or real singers, real band, real orchestra.

pipAT

pianow The first time I heard VSL 280VC, I almost mistook it for PTQ. LOL. I thought I would rather had a PTQ version instead. At that time, PTQ had not released 280VC, and VSL had not compressed data yet. Later more demos came out. I heard more variations of the tone. It is not bad but I prefer their Imperial.

johanibraaten

pipAT woodwinds from Audio Modelling

Those saxophones are quite cool.

pipAT

Funny thing is that Audio Modeling and Sample Modeling were two brother companies separated from the original company. Their opinions became different towards virtual instruments against each other. Thus the original company split.

pianow

pipAT
completely agreed

CyberGene

To bring back the discussion to something technical. Most (all) sampled pianos are more or less modeled in the same sense as Pianoteq: they “model” the behavior of acoustic pianos through various means:

The volume and timbre change with velocity
There’s a release sound (except for highest notes)
Notes get sustained with the sustain pedal (except for highest notes that are always sustained)
There’s re-pedaling
There’s half-pedaling
There’s damper resonance
There’s una-corda
There’s sostenuto
There are various noises
There’s brightness, dynamics and touch curves

It’s basically behaving like a piano. That’s modeling. Because Pianoteq doesn’t use finite element modeling (what many people erroneously imagine modeling means: having the entire piano and its moving parts working in a virtual simulation. Nope). They just re-synthesize sound that approximates pre-recorded samples and by using pre-calculated sine-wave envelopes, curves, tables and other realtime (additive/subtractive) synth-like audio parameters, so that the synth sounds and behaves similar to the recording of the target piano.

Pete14

CyberGene

Interesting how you listed “10” things; coincidence?

Now, on the notion that we’re not getting “true” modeling, and according to Quasi, ‘it’s not just a matter of having computers that can handle massive calculations per second, but also the immense complexity involved in capturing these elements,’ which I believe he deemed all but impossible, I wonder, could AI aid in this “gathering” process, and, therefore, allow for “true” physical modeling?

pipAT

Compared with early funny GM midi like PTQ, 4Front Truepianos, Acoustica Pianissimo etc., PTQ 8 has improved in piano modeling sphere with many more nuanced funtions. It's not totally bad for playing for fun or practice. Some even only use PTQ for practice, sampled vis for production. And talking about pure synthersizers, Xfer, Uhe, Spire, or real hardware synth, nothing comes close PTQ in emulating acoustic pianos. I also treat PTQ as synth. To me, kind of , other synth pianos are like regular racing games like NFS, while PTQ like Asseto Corsa, detailed emulations. Of course, different from driving a real car. Sampled vis, modelled vi, digital pianos are all different from a real piano, sound and touch when playing.

CyberGene

Pete14 AI (or Machine Learning, to be strict) can help in creating better coefficients/curves/tables (or whatever they call these internal tuning parameters) to try to approximate the original recorded samples as close as possible but it can’t help in making faster computers 😃 I don’t believe we will ever have computers that are fast enough to run a detailed finite element model of a piano in real time.

I remember my work as a beta tester on one of the Pianoteq models. (My NDA has expired long ago). Philippe would prepare these internal calibrations and would give it to us. People would comment, record, discuss. Personally I used to create comparative recordings between Pianoteq and Vintage D (that’s what I had at the time). I would say something like: see how this phrase accentuates metallic overtones in PT and how nicely it blends in Vintage D. Philippe would then do another internal re-configuration based on beta testers feedback. Indeed, sometimes he addressed my comments but then something else got wrong. And in his words (not literal quote, but along the lines of): yes, it’s tricky because adjusting one of these (internal) params changes many things at a time. It’s also when I lost faith in PT. The entire beta process was just moving in circles and it never gradually went better, only changed certain aspects at the expense of others. This might be a subjective understanding and I may be biased but my participation was valuable and they invited me for a few other models but I declined politely.

ML can help in such a process by first learning when a piano sound and behavior is close enough to another one and then apply combinatorial tweaking of all the internal params iteratively until they approach the target sound, rather than relying on beta testers and one man who tweaks some knobs (figuratively) to address comments.

Pete14

CyberGene I remember my work as a beta tester on one of the Pianoteq models..

Wait, you once “worked” for Pianoteq, and then decided to become a whistleblower? 😉

Perhaps it might’ve been better if you’d let us believe that it was indeed a real physical model, but I suppose you felt it your responsibility to blow the whistle on Philippe!

BTW, wouldn’t it be great if he stopped by? but come to think of it, he might not be too motivated considering the amount of “love” Pianoteq gets ‘round here….

P.S.

Has anyone tried a totally different approach to capture “the piano” other than a bunch of recordings, and/or a bunch of knobs? It would be great if we had a third option, and no, the “hybrid” approach (sampling + modeling) doesn’t count as a third option!

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