My Concern with PianoTeq

David Lai · 2024-10-03T13:46:50+00:00

Hi friends, This thread is mainly for, well, you guessed it. Under inspiration of Pete14's message on a thread about a sampled Steinway D: "Okay, let’s forget about who’s the best for a minute (Pianoteq), and pay attention to the bigger picture…" In his mind, there's none other than PianoTeq that has all he wants in a piano. It's a pitty the demo of PianoTeq has some non-working keys, otherwise, I would now throw in an audio file of recordings from a real Steinway, compared to Modern D, then PianoTeq. But since I can't, I'll do the next best thing. I discovered this video not long ago, and I thought I'd post it here. It's someone demoing PianoTeq's acoustic pianos in various musical styles. Here are my thoughts after listening to the video: From version 6 (pirated version I happen to try) to now with version 8 (as presented in this video), how far have we come? It seems like we've progressed little, if not at all. The nasal mids are still there, the synthetic high register is still there, the strange tones when played loudly is still there. The synthetic quality of this synthesizer remains unchanged. And no matter what type or kind of piano it attempts at, it fails because it has its own sound signature pasted on all of these pianos. So they are not models of Steinways, they are PianoTeq versions of Steinways at best, and I'm being polite in still giving it a name and place. That's why PianoTeq never won me over in the first place, even with its playability and phrasing. Of course, it's small on resources, too, but the main thing that makes me want to continue using the piano VST is its sound, and that, PianoTeq loses bigtime. Now with the Modern D, I could phrase like when I'm on VSL, or (heck) PianoTeq, but it won't give me a harsh metallic synth sound. What I hear is a warm, true-to-life sound that is just like the Steinways I've played at school, and the Steinways I hear on recordings. Which is the best? Clearly, a 100% sampled Modern D! As for PianoTeq, if we look at it realisticly, from a sound and aesthetic perspective, it pales in comparison. Now, some people might say, what about resonances? Well, an actual acoustic piano has resonances that blooms over time, and as new notes add to the resonance, the gradual fluctuation of the volume of the resonances is something magical. For the first time, Modern D captures this kind of life-like (living) resonance experience. However, while PianoTeq is best when it stays in the background offering modeled resonances, its resonances can be best be described as a wall. It never interacts with the sounding note, and thus, is dead, not life-like (living). Double hit for PianoTeq. That's all I have to say about it, and I'm very serious about it. No joke! For proof, just listen to the kind of sound PianoTeq produces, as that video as an example. OK, let me take a break from this topic for a bit. You guys, have fun.

Pete14

I’ve been kicked out of Modern D land, but it turns out this here thread is the “real” modern world!

Not to be eager, but you all know Pianoteq 9 is coming soon? and yes, it will be the mother load, a paradigm shift, and only the second coming would make a bigger splash!

Yes, Modartt got into AI early (bet you didn’t know that), and “the machine” has been crunching numbers at an exponential rate, so this “Newteq” will push Pianoteq into the stratosphere and beyond!

You won’t even need to “Power-ON, boot, etc…” but rather simply say “Pianoteq Activate,” and as if by osmosis, a version better than yesterday’s and already building on tomorrow will be ready for you to play.

Powered by AI means it’s a “self-learning” machine, so the notion of waiting for version 10,11,12, etc.. will be moot, because every single day you will have a new & improved “model” at your service. I mean, how great is that?!!!

QuasiUnaFantasia

Unfortunately, the improvements in Pianoteq have slowed to a crawl, and the next version will be the first to actually have regressed from the pinnacle which was the previous version. But get that one while you can, because the following version will be much worse!

😁

Pete14

QuasiUnaFantasia Unfortunately, the improvements in Pianoteq have slowed to a crawl, and the next version will be the first to actually have regressed from the pinnacle which was the previous version. But get that one while you can, because the following version will be much worse!

Where did you get this information from? surely, it is not the case (and I know that from “the most reliable source”).

QuasiUnaFantasia

Pete14 It is a forecast made by a statistical model based on the historical developments of Pianoteq.

Pete14

Well, I’m sorry to break it to you, but that “forecast” you talk about was made by a static sample, and not a statistical model, and if there’s one thing I know about static-data that would be that it is, well, static (lacking in movement, action, or change)….

QuasiUnaFantasia

Pete14 I'm willing to update the model upon arrival of fresh data (i.e. version 9). And - to be earnest (for just a moment anyway) - I would love to see actual major improvement in Pianoteq. It's just that my expectations are now so low that I find it difficult to believe in any improvements to the tone; they will probably add some features, but the tone will stay essentially the same.

David Lai

Pete14 Yeah, dream on, Pete! I wonder what kind of a "reliable source" is this that you got this stuff from? Surely, it's your own imagination, because you are an imagineer! Therefore, that's what they are, whild imaginings that can only be fantasy.

Based on historic developments of PianoTeq, however, we know that it has been rehashing old stuff over the past 6 versions at the most, and its improvements are small, if not at all. More piano models, yes, but the sound is still uninspiring.

As a pianist, that's why I'm still staying away from PianoTeq.

David Lai

QuasiUnaFantasia they will probably add some features, but the tone will stay essentially the same.

Yes, and not a piano tone, unfortunately. Heck, even the Roland and Kawai models on their on-board sounds are better tone wise than PianoTeq.

QuasiUnaFantasia

I have a feeling (not merely a "gut" one, but based on various technical insights) that the real problem for Pianoteq is that Modartt are adamant in keeping the CPU requirements very low, and for this reason they have to avoid including a lot of high frequency material, and this entails distortion relative to the "correct" tone. Some people apparently don't perceive any unpleasantness to the tone, and so they happily use Pianoteq; maybe this user base is simply enough for Modartt.

pipAT

IIRC, YAM and KAWA Digital Pianos are all samples, AWM or PCM tech based. Roland is in the league of PTQ, modelling. And IIRC, Sir Pete is using YAM digital pianos. Yam digital piano and sampled vis are all samples. Why sampled vis are to the blame? Was there any unhappy purchase experience of those samples?

David Lai

Another thing. Pete mentioned version 9 is coming. Let's think about the release cycle of PianoTeq, if there is one.

If a Google search got the info right, PianoTeq 6 was released September 6, 2017, version 7 in December 11, 2020, and most recent version 8 in November 16, 2022.

So, why don't we just wait? We still have a couple of months till 2024 is out, will version 9 come this year? It's about time they release it. And then we can judge if Pete is dreaming or there's truth in his posts. I'm willing to be on the side lines watching it all happen.

However, from 6 to 8, the tone hasn't improved much, which is still quite sad.

David Lai

QuasiUnaFantasia Good point. Also, the CPU power on phones and other smart devices doesn't allow very much live processing, so you can have PianoTeq on these platforms, too.

QuasiUnaFantasia

David Lai However, from 6 to 8, the tone hasn't improved much, which is still quite sad.

I upgraded from version 6 to version 7, but I did not feel the sound improved at all. New features were introduced, but by then I had discovered samples ...

Pete14

David Lai

Pianoteq Activate! 😁

David Lai

Pete14 Dear Pete, We're not joking around or dreaming here. Face the facts, man!

pianow

pipAT

no, the whole thing is because he's a child, unhappy, always whining about how the things truly are.
he just wants to be different then the majority
if we were in the modeling team, he would be talking about how samples are the future, how great and high quality they are compared to modeled pianos.

Pete14

QuasiUnaFantasia the real problem for Pianoteq is that Modartt are adamant in keeping the CPU requirements very low, and for this reason they have to avoid including a lot of high frequency material, and this entails distortion relative to the "correct" tone.

Okay, I’ll give an inch here….

In the past this seemed to play right into the hands of people still using their grandma’s computer, and not willing to upgrade to a Mac Pro, but today we have a totally new reality, and what would’ve cost thousands then, can now be had for hundreds (the M2 Mac Mini, for example), and now that the M4 Mac Mini is about to be released, the M2 will go down in price; never mind the M1 Mini; which is still a powerhouse despite.

QuasiUnaFantasia

Pete14 Maybe that will indeed prompt a change in Modartts' approach.

Pete14

QuasiUnaFantasia

Yes!

And further elaborating on your point, I remember Modartt at one point talking about the mammoth amount of calculations per seconds required to render a ‘realistic’ lower-end, and yes, I think an M2 Mac Mini would be able to handle this and then some……

Mindbullets

Pete14 That feature request has come up a few times for discussion on the Modartt forums. I've seen it most recently here: https://forum.modartt.com//viewtopic.php?id=11505&p=2

Maybe if enough people press it, it'll get some attention from Modartt? It'd be nice if they had a community wishlist where you could vote on feature requests and discuss them in a little more of an organized manner.

Maybe it's just not feasible without a total overhaul, too. Hard to say.

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