My Concern with PianoTeq

Hi friends,

This thread is mainly for, well, you guessed it.

Under inspiration of Pete14's message on a thread about a sampled Steinway D: "Okay, let’s forget about who’s the best for a minute (Pianoteq), and pay attention to the bigger picture…"

In his mind, there's none other than PianoTeq that has all he wants in a piano.

It's a pitty the demo of PianoTeq has some non-working keys, otherwise, I would now throw in an audio file of recordings from a real Steinway, compared to Modern D, then PianoTeq. But since I can't, I'll do the next best thing.

I discovered this video not long ago, and I thought I'd post it here. It's someone demoing PianoTeq's acoustic pianos in various musical styles.

Here are my thoughts after listening to the video:

1. From version 6 (pirated version I happen to try) to now with version 8 (as presented in this video), how far have we come? It seems like we've progressed little, if not at all. The nasal mids are still there, the synthetic high register is still there, the strange tones when played loudly is still there. The synthetic quality of this synthesizer remains unchanged. And no matter what type or kind of piano it attempts at, it fails because it has its own sound signature pasted on all of these pianos. So they are not models of Steinways, they are PianoTeq versions of Steinways at best, and I'm being polite in still giving it a name and place.

That's why PianoTeq never won me over in the first place, even with its playability and phrasing. Of course, it's small on resources, too, but the main thing that makes me want to continue using the piano VST is its sound, and that, PianoTeq loses bigtime.

Now with the Modern D, I could phrase like when I'm on VSL, or (heck) PianoTeq, but it won't give me a harsh metallic synth sound. What I hear is a warm, true-to-life sound that is just like the Steinways I've played at school, and the Steinways I hear on recordings.

Which is the best? Clearly, a 100% sampled Modern D! As for PianoTeq, if we look at it realisticly, from a sound and aesthetic perspective, it pales in comparison.

2. Now, some people might say, what about resonances? Well, an actual acoustic piano has resonances that blooms over time, and as new notes add to the resonance, the gradual fluctuation of the volume of the resonances is something magical. For the first time, Modern D captures this kind of life-like (living) resonance experience. However, while PianoTeq is best when it stays in the background offering modeled resonances, its resonances can be best be described as a wall. It never interacts with the sounding note, and thus, is dead, not life-like (living).

Double hit for PianoTeq.

That's all I have to say about it, and I'm very serious about it. No joke! For proof, just listen to the kind of sound PianoTeq produces, as that video as an example.

OK, let me take a break from this topic for a bit. You guys, have fun.

A few years ago I looked at power spectra for Pianoteq, and it seemed to me that the third and fourth harmonic overtones were hugely exaggerated. I think the harshness in Pianoteq's sound comes from having the higher harmonics dominate wildly.

But in fairness, it was a relatively small sample* I was looking at.

*Yes, I sampled the model output. 🙂

i can't add any meaningful information to this thread, at least at the moment, you've said it all

my vote is the vilabs modern d

QuasiUnaFantasia Certainly there's that. And it continues to be exaggerated even on the high register of the keyboard, which makes it rather synthy to listen to.

David Lai

some people think it's an advantage to have a true noise free piano but i think a part of its unrealistic tone is because the lack of any noise

i know this because if you would denoise a sampled piano completely, it'll sound super unnatural
but even that unnatural denoised sound is not comparable to the pianoteq synth quality

pianow if you would denoise a sampled piano completely, it'll sound super unnatural

This is true, but part of this is that the de-noising process removes some of the original piano tone as well as the noise, and this creates distortion (I'm working with that exact problem in my own efforts to create a VI).

EDIT: Funny thing to try: run de-noising on a piece of recorded music, then subtract the de-noised version from the original, and listen to the result. I am pretty sure you will be able to identify the original music easily in the supposed "noise". 🙂

QuasiUnaFantasia but part of this is that the de-noising process removes some of the original piano tone

yup, if you do this way too much (150 - 200%)
the piano/anything sounds like it's on the water because of the lack of original overtones and phase issues.
it's pretty crazy, but i was talking about a decent denoising, imagine denoising some audio clips to the point that it has nex to no noise floor but the actual audio content is not corrupted as well, and even that'd sound unnatural

David Lai It's a pitty the demo of PianoTeq has some non-working keys, otherwise, I would now throw in an audio file of recordings from a real Steinway, compared to Modern D, then PianoTeq. But since I can't, I'll do the next best thing

the demo of the pianoteq has all the white keys i guess so the c major and a minor scales are there, I hope that's enough for you to make a 3 way comparison between between the real piano, the sampled one and the modeled one

David Lai From version 6 (pirated version I happen to try) to now with version 8 (as presented in this video), how far have we come? It seems like we've progressed little, if not at all.

Agreed.

I looked at nearly every demo version starting with v2.

That version was utterly terrible, but v3 was a remarkable improvement. Still not acceptable, but I was hopeful.
I tried again with v4. This time the improvement was quite small, and still not acceptable.

With all the hype online at PW I tried again with v5 and v6. (Maybe v7, too? Can't remember.)
I was expecting more progress, but I heard no difference at all!

Over time they just serve up the same old, unacceptable sound … but with a host of new brand names attached (Bechstein, Steinway, etc. etc.)

If Pete claims that PT is the best thing since sliced bread, then just give me a baguette.

I'm a PT fan. I like it for what it is, I really like it because it works on an iPad and I especially like it for what it promises :-) to be one day.

The problem with PT is that I spend more time tweaking it (or looking for the correct preset), trying to make it sound like a piano, than actually playing it

Okay, in reply to my own suggestion from before I just ran de-noising on an old recording from the 1930's, saving the "noise". As a result, here, for the first time ever, a well-known Austrian pianist can be heard playing on the worlds first synthesizer, the beginning of Beethoven's 19th sonata:

beethoven-sonata-no-19.mp3

David Lai From version 6 (pirated version I happen to try) to now with version 8 (as presented in this video), how far have we come? It seems like we've progressed little, if not at all. The nasal mids are still there, the synthetic high register is still there, the strange tones when played loudly is still there. The synthetic quality of this synthesizer remains unchanged.

I agree 100%. I started with Pianoteq 6 and have installed every updated since (mainly out of curiosity), and the reality is that there has been little to no progress in the fundamental nature of the sound. Each new update merely rearranges the furniture in the living room, but never address the underlying cracks in the foundation.

And to give credit where it is due, I think the recently released 280VC is quite clearly the most attractive sounding model Pianoteq has released to date, and even then I can't bring myself to pay $50 for it because the minute I switch to the VSL 280VC, I know I would never choose to play the synthetic version over the real one. It's not even close.

And despite the claims of modeling being "the future" pretty much all the meaningful advances I've seen in the past 5 years have had far more of an effect on the sampling-based world. Computer processing speeds and storage are advancing at a pace far beyond anything Pianoteq can keep up with, to the point where even modest systems have blazing fast speeds and one can get several TBs of solid state storage for under $100. VSL just compressed all their sample libraries so that they require a fraction of what they used to in terms of storage. This new Modern D has practically everything one could ask for in a sample library, and comes in at a mere 18GB. The advantage of low CPU and storage requirements that modeling once boasted becomes less relevant every year.

Meanwhile Pianoteq seems to be stuck somewhere around 2015 and show no signs of turning the corner.

MacMacMac If Pete claims that PT is the best thing since sliced bread, then just give me a baguette.

Classic!!!

QuasiUnaFantasia Though it does sound funny, this really is what you get. Thanks for sharing! 🙂

jdg78 Meanwhile Pianoteq seems to be stuck somewhere around 2015 and show no signs of turning the corner.

True. From a reply above, it sounds like this has been the case since version 3 or 4. Though I've continued watching PianoTeq's development, I'm continuously losing hope that one day I'll be buying and embracing it. However, Modern U and Modern D has won me over by their sound and performance, that when I was asked to do demos and have early access to the latter, I did not hesitate.

Irmin The problem with PT is that I spend more time tweaking it (or looking for the correct preset), trying to make it sound like a piano, than actually playing it

The sad news is, when compared to the real thing, or indeed, an excellently sampled one, you immediately hear what’s lacking. And once you can hear it, it’s very difficult to make PTQ sound like that, an acoustic piano.

The reality is that I'm at a disadvantage compared to most of the pianists on this forum. I started playing the piano in my forties and I haven't developed any real refinement in my playing. I lack technique and I don't play anything that difficult.

With that caveat out of the way, I've noticed while playing the Ivory 3 and Studiologic Stage D, which are both hybrids (sampled/modeled), that they play better than any pure sampled based instrument I have. This brings up a consideration for me. What's more important, how a piano plays and allows me to express my undeveloped technique, or how it sounds in comparison to a real acoustic piano?

Sound is definitely important because I won't be motivated to play a virtual piano if it doesn't sound good. Pianoteq was the first VST I purchased a year or so after I started playing. I shortly thereafter started a thread on PW titled "Pianoteq purchase gone wrong."

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2615309/Pianoteq_purchase_gone_wrong.html

I was lamenting how much I hated the way it sounded. 😀 This was before I knew the difference between sampled and modeled virtual pianos. I have the latest version of Pianoteq and I still can't play it. So sound trumps playability when it comes to Pianoteq (for me). Then I went down the rabbit hole of VSL and many other virtual pianos focusing on sound and not playability since I was only a beginner and couldn't really play much of anything anyways.

Now I'm 51 and I notice I'm willing to sacrifice some sound quality/realism for better playability. Not to the degree of Pianoteq 🤮, but the Ivory 3 and Stage D are nice compromises. I find myself more motivated to play and develop better technique when I have a virtual piano that makes me feel more connected to the expression of sound that starts in my brain and travels though my body into the instrument. Modeling does that better than sampling for me.

I'm not sure what's going to develop faster, i.e., pure modeling, pure sampling or hybrids, but I'm grateful there are some good options out there and we're not limited to only pure acoustic instruments with the additional considerations that they bring.

God Bless,
David

David B Indeed, when done well, hybrid libraries can be better both playing and sounding. AcousticSamples has their V series, and it's a good example.

However, so far I have yet to see a hybrid piano library (sampled + modeled) that's truly gapless. On Ivory III, I sometimes can hear the modeling bit, if you know what I mean.

David B With that caveat out of the way, I've noticed while playing the Ivory 3 and Studiologic Stage D, which are both hybrids (sampled/modeled), that they play better than any pure sampled based instrument I have. This brings up a consideration for me. What's more important, how a piano plays and allows me to express my undeveloped technique, or how it sounds in comparison to a real acoustic piano?

Both are important and I think the dividing line will fall in a different place for each person. I agree that Ivory 3 has superb playability and it really makes a difference - it feels incredibly cohesive and smooth. However for me, I think the tone leans a bit more towards the artificial side than I am personally comfortable with, and after a while I found myself gravitating back to VSL because on balance I found it a more satisfying overall experience, despite the very real gains in playability that the Ivory 3 offers.

However, I really hope that they continue to advance the technology, as I feel like it is so close and just needs a little extra touch of tonal fidelity to put it over the edge. I would also love to see how the engine responds to different pianos and if the timbre of that particular Hamburg D has something to do with my impression of it.

Irmin I'm a PT fan. I like it for what it is

Same, I don't think it perfectly replicates the sound of an acoustic piano, but it's a fun synth to complement my sample libraries. Pteq became more enjoyable (at least to me) when I started to think of it as its own kind of instrument where I have real-time control over hundreds of params and experimenting with those. Continuous pedals mapped to celeste, pinch harmonics, buff stop, etc., poly aftertouch for string bends like a guitar, etc. There is a characteristic "modeled sound" sure, but it's a useful tool for practicing piano and it runs just fine on my phone.

That said, if I want a Steinway simulator, I'll play Modern D. 🙂