[deleted] wow, you really seem to hate these guys for no apparent reason.
I don’t hate them. It just annoys me that since the very beginning they advertised it as the best piano action in the world but relied on springs, which many people pointed out was not gonna work. Now, there’s some “small” update to the working principle but at least they retained what’s most important: it’s still the best action in the world. Do you not smell the BS?
Well - they did make one boo-boo (mistake) when they wrote (at LINK) this --
We design and make keyboard instruments that capture the magic of playing a real piano.
They meant - 'acoustic' piano. Because I already mentioned that both acoustic pianos and digital pianos fall under the 'piano' umbrella. The other thing is - they probably haven't experienced the magic of playing a digital piano because they are 'them' - and they are not 'us' (or me). They might not be able to do what we do. When we know what we're doing adequately - up to a point - we can make music magic with pretty much any 'piano'. And -- no -- most 'complex' classical music and fancy foot/finger work is not 'holy grail' of music. And this is from a big fan of classical music (me). It's only just mentioning it - as a teaching reminder.
But 'having wrote all that' ( <-- cliche) - I too hope these fellas succeed. Good on them for having a crack. In history - we know that at least sometimes, some progress - or significant progress - can actually be made from people continuing to have a go, and trying, whether it be a combination of trial and error, stroke of luck, or help from others, own thinking, engineering etc.
For the vidal team - maybe one suggestion for the marketing side of things is -- if you're going to be taking orders in advance, then put up a heap of vids on the internet - so that when somebody googles 'vidal piano', then the expectation will be that they find vids where somebody is using the product, generating music from that product (or future product). Don't just have videos of somebody pushing the keys - without any musical notes/sounds. At the moment, when I google 'vidal piano', I find zero vid links of somebody playing music with the vidal midi controller (now known as vidal piano controller).
CyberGene It just annoys me that since the very beginning they advertised it as the best piano action in the world but relied on springs, which many people pointed out was not gonna work. Now, there’s some “small” update to the working principle but at least they retained what’s most important: it’s still the best action in the world. Do you not smell the BS?
Yes, the overconfident marketing spin is a bit off putting. I found it amusing that at one point they claim to have ditched having an adjustable touch (which now merely "sounds good on paper") due to customer feedback and "now ship every keyboard with the perfect feel right out of the box."
Never mind that in reality they have yet to produce or ship a single unit, and that what constitutes "perfect touch" is going to differ from user to user, but it seems much more likely that the actual reason they ditched it is because it wasn't working well and they couldn't figure out how to implement it adequately.
The whole thing comes off very amateurish.
they probably realized that tuning the feel with springs isn't so simple, especially at scale. Springs themselves have a tolerance, and using "inertia" just means they have to keep the part weights and balances consistent. Just guessing.
Calibration - and reliability - and just having the system working properly for relatively long periods of time, without deviating 'too much' from its calibrated state -- is what we're after. People can't even get acoustic pianos mechanisms to stop deviating from 'calibrated' state. So people either have to get a tuner person to come along every once in a while to sort something out, or they have to - if they can - do it themselves.
These people here at the vidal team obviously encounter challenges - that haven't been solved. Most likely including performance consistency over time. Making mistakes and failing/stumbling etc -- is a part of life. But taking money/orders and having only still images of the team members playing their piano, with little to no examples of the music generated - even from a prototype. Well -- that's probably a no-no.
I can't see how this would be more like a concert grand than lots of other digitals. It doesn't make sense to talk about long key sticks as if that increases leverage. It doesn't. The leverage is decided by the distance to the balance rail. On this new action the distance isn't the same as it is on a concert grand.
It's the uniformity of leverage over the playable area that matters. That depends on the distance to the balance rail and nothing else. Physics isn't ambiguous on this matter. The previous version had the pivot point at the back of the key and was like a concert grand.
Whatever happens on the far side of the balance rail is not relevant to the uniformity of leverage over the playable area. It just isn't.
That's why the future of piano - in the distant future - might be in the area of exoskeletons/skeletonics etc. Sensors on or underneath keys - along the length, and they detect where your fingers are - and provides sort of like 'power steering' - and the amount of power or 'assistance' you get depends on where your finger is. Sort of like fly-by-wire, but better. They still have to think about 'stealth' systems though - as in the hardware etc must not introduce unwanted 'noise' - such as what they might have in existing pianos - particular acoustic ones - ie. the kadunk kadunk noises, clumps, clunks, thumps, etc.
It doesn't make sense to talk about long key sticks as if that increases leverage. It doesn't. The leverage is decided by the distance to the balance rail. On this new action the distance isn't the same as it is on a concert grand.
Acoustic grands are much more complicated. In contrast to the Casio GP action with one more moving part than a typical DP hammer action, this one seems to have one less moving part, so no hammer. Hammer actions have a gear ratio for the hammer. This one doesn't; it only has weights on both sides of the stick. They must be roughly balanced (so that a ca 50g of weight on the tip of the key gets it to move down). A longer distance of the weights to the balance rail (on both sides) does increase the inertia (torque). Due to the lack of the hammer, they also need heavier weights to get reasonable inertia. Expect MP11SE kind of portability 😉
_sem_ A longer distance of the weights to the balance rail (on both sides) does increase the inertia (torque). Due to the lack of the hammer, they also need heavier weights to get reasonable inertia. Expect MP11SE kind of portability 😉
They could use heavier weights. 😀 I think one thing it has in common with a concert grand is the level of probability. 🤣
Plays like an infomercial but I think it is nice to see some unboxing and playing on the shipped product.
willryu Gimme, gimme, gimme.
tonyminas I hope to be able to test drive one of these soon. Especially to see how closely it replicates the non-linear aspects of a grand action.
tonyminas the non-linear aspects
What non linear? As far as I can tell the part of the grand action which Vidal implements is quite linear (the non-linear would be in the whippen and backcheck which this does not implement at all -- it used to simulate it with magnets, but now got rid of that part, unfortunately)
How expensive (forbidding) is this one?
Very, I think around 5000$ category. Niche product for niche market.
The website says $9,121.00 CAD for us Canadians.
Here is the link that should tell you how much in your country's currency:
RIP Alas I think you may be right. Not to say that it's an apples to apples comparison, but the movement on the Kawai Grand Feel actions felt a bit linear as well. Maybe this is why I preferred the Roland digital actions, folded or not under the fingers the tended to feel a little less linear. Geometry is wild.
But it's also possible that I'm just imagining it all.
tonyminas he movement on the Kawai Grand Feel actions felt a bit linear as well.
I agree. An acoustic (or hybrid) action feels different. I think with this price for the Vidal, I don't see why anybody would buy that rather than a hybrid instead. Or if one really needs the semi-portable form factor an MP11 or VPC11 instead. Or, after your report from NAMM a Studiologic SL88 GT mk2….
willryu Thank you. $6600 (obviously before tax). That's indeed less expensive than the NV12, but still, quite an investment for a piano style midi controller keyboard.
The SL 88 GT mk2 is really nice, I changed from a Yamaha P-525. The TP400 wood action on the SL feels better than the Yamaha’s. I also got a side panel mod from syntholz.de for it:
