NV12 officially announced on 22/08/2025

Pete14

RIP And in any case it's all moot point since KJ is not on this forum, but only in PW, so this is clearly just goofing around and wondering among ourselves…

I’ve personally invited him to come ‘round here for “a quickie;” however, in retrospect, that was not the best way to put it, because I later learned of certain “associations” with the term “quickie,” but what I meant to say was for him to stop by, quickly, share his thoughts, quickly, and then take off, quickly; hence, “a quickie,” but little did I know (at the time).

I’m not in a position to offer a second invitation, but I’d like to see “administration” offer James a proper, official invitation; heck, I’d even pick him up at the airport……

P.S.

KFB is no longer here, and what am I but an old fart with a few questions? 😉

P.P.S.

Seriously, James would be more than welcomed ‘round here……🙂

jenpal

According to Kawai’s premium retailer selection centre website below, the NV12’s action appears to be from a GX-2 grand piano (length: 5’11”) and has no speakers, but the sound is produced entirely by transducers placed upon a spruce soundboard. 🤔

https://houseofpianos.com.au/products/kawai-nv12-hybrid-digital-grand-piano?variant=43677396566115&country=AU&currency=AUD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22465402487&gbraid=0AAAAAC3xIyXdrmBD6DJapdooGiWG_EYRN&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjsCegoDEjwMVrg57Bx0ioTviEAQYASABEgLqgfD_BwE

The NV12 has a retail price of $23,995 AUD, which is approximately 41% higher than the NV10s retail price of $16,995 AUD (although the NV10s is currently on sale for $13,995 AUD in one of the retailers in Australia).

Pete14

It seems like it’s already for sale (somewhere in the world), so I wonder how long before we see “unboxing” videos and such….

Now, on the matter of soundboard, and assuming all things pan out well, it could potentially be better for VSTs than conventional speakers (I speculate); and if that turns out to be the case, the instrument will not soon be rendered obsolete by the “newest” on-board sound engine; because for a couple of bucks you can keep it up to date paired to the state-of-the-art Pianoteq; therefore, rendering the instrument ageless, forever young, and unlike the outdated acoustic, never needing a’ tunin’.

CyberGene

Pete14 it could potentially be better for VSTs than conventional speakers (I speculate)

Why? Soundboards are not known to be a good replacement for speakers? They are a specialized tool that can help in widening the radiation surface but it will require specially crafted samples, or at least careful EQ-ing. You seem kind of overhyped for (what to me seems) no reason 🧐

Pete14

CyberGene Why? Soundboards are not known to be a good replacement for speakers? They are a specialized tool that can help in widening the radiation surface but it will require specially crafted samples, or at least careful EQ-ing. You seem kind of overhyped for (what to me seems) no reason

But, CG, how do we know they haven’t “specially crafted samples,” careful EQ-ing, and some other as-of-yet-unknown special sauce?

Consider, there was no pressure on them to go full-board, and the fact that they did, tells me that this was years in the making, and not something done in a haste; and sure, I’m also curious how this small-ish soundboard will replicate the experience of playing a concert grand, but then again, what if, CG, what if Kawai has indeed created some magic?

Now, I’ve since changed my stance on the lack of damper sensors, and whilst it might not be important to some, it is to others (silent strokes, release/note-off detection, etc..). So I’m hoping that they added this to the NV12; especially considering its price point and targeted demographic.

Of course, James could clear the air by simply telling us, but I’m sure he’s enjoying teasing us to death (I’ve lost several nights of sleep over this)…..😉

CyberGene

Pete14 But, CG, how do we know they haven’t “specially crafted samples,” careful EQ-ing, and some other as-of-yet-unknown special sauce?

I was commenting on the soundboard-only suitability for virtual pianos (VST-s) because that’s what you suggested. Virtual pianos are made for neutral audio reproduction, i.e. speakers.

David Lai

Pete14 It would be interesting to see if a soundboard can really be good for sample libraries. The jury is still out.

HZPiano

David Lai

Most certainly, it would be very interesting.

But I anticipate all sorts of difficulties and assume Kawai had to do a lot to set up a complete chain from sample sets through DSP, amplification and so on to get this soundboard setup working. That would imply that playing VSTs through that same chain turns out to be not as straightforward as we would hope.

A few years ago I watched a short series about building DIY flat speaker panels out of common materials and exciters.

I found all of that so mouthwateringly interesting that I was really itching to start experimenting with all of that. But my multitude of other interests and, say, running my life in general prevented me from embarking on Yet More Projects.

When carefully thought through and judiciously approached, nice results can be reached but as I understand it, exciting plates/boards works best in mid frequencies, with large roll-offs toward base and treble.

When this new Kawai child reaches my neck of the woods, I'll certainly go out and see what they made of it.

Cheers and happy anticipation,

Pete14

CyberGene Virtual pianos are made for neutral audio reproduction, i.e. speakers.

What if Modartt has modeled a Shigeru specifically for this piano; specifically for this action, and yes, specifically for this soundboard?

We did get a “specialized” velocity curve for Pianoteq/VPC1, so, let us dream! 🙏

Pete14

HZPiano A few years ago I watched a short series about building DIY flat speaker panels out of common materials and exciters…..

I found all of that so mouthwateringly interesting that I was really itching to start experimenting with all of that…

If you were excited about “common materials and exciters,” imagine what a well-crafted, specially-seasoned, rare, wooden plank derived directly from the tallest trees in the world will do for you…..

I expect your report on the NV12 ASAP!

Pete14

David Lai It would be interesting to see if a soundboard can really be good for sample libraries. The jury is still out.

Surely, I hope you get to try an NV12 and give us your perspective on how it compares to the rest…..

HZPiano

Pete14

Well, plotting a custom velocity curve (a little table with from this/to that numbers) is of a whole other magnitude of underwhelming easyness than such a whole sound integration.

Marketing wise, such a little this/that table is golden of course; after two interns at Kawai and Modartt had mailed a bit with eachother and typed the little table into a .txt file and burned that into an EPROM, thousands and thousands of VPCs and Modartt licenses could then be sold through strong marketing, imprinting our brains with the greatness of the little this/to/that table.

Pardon my late Sunday night cynicism 😁.

Cheers!

Pete14

HZPiano

Such skepticism wrapped in cynicism, I say!

David Lai

Pete14 If I can get access to such an instrument, I'll report for sure. But since it's not easy to get around in Bloomington without a car, I'll have to do some planning and searching if I want to visit a Kawai dealer.

RIP

HZPiano A few years ago I watched a short series about building DIY flat speaker panels out of common materials and exciters.

Yes, I remember that….

HZPiano I found all of that so mouthwateringly interesting that I was really itching to start experimenting with all of that. But my multitude of other interests and, say, running my life in general prevented me from embarking on Yet More Projects.

… and at the time I had the time availability and opportunity to experiment with it. My results were:

for some recordings, the results were astonishing, it sounded like a violinist materialized in front of me
for some other recordings, it behaved like a mid-of-the-road speaker
for some others (critically, solo piano and virtual instruments fell here) it behaved like a cheap speaker

But the deal breaker for me (since I was investigating it for the DIY hybrid piano) was that when I built another one with the size restriction of the instrument I was (at the time) starting to build, it sounded like crap and I gave up.

So it is possible that Kawai designed the whole chain here in a way that's beneficial to pianos and could transfer to other virtual instruments. On the other hand it's also possible that this much needed tuning works only for the internal sounds and not for other ones. I was strongly leaning towards the latter, until I read

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/2112-why-does-my-shigeru-kawai-in-ptq-8-sound-great-in-n1x-but-bad-in-headphones

which now moved my speculation slightly toward the former. Certainly nice to watch, but definitely not an instrument I will buy, for the 3 deal-breaker reasons (each one alone would be a deal breaker, three together make it a sure-as-hell no):

price is too high (okay, this might go down with time, and in the used market, but it would probably take decades)
I really don't like the aesthetic of a "toy grand"
I am learning and enjoying the reduced-size-octave instruments, and in fact I am now mulling the option of selling my own DIY hybrid for this very reason (any buyer 'round here? 😉 )

HZPiano

RIP size restriction of the instrument

That indeed makes me wonder how the NV12 will pan out.

Nice to read about your experiments and findings.

Cheers!

QuasiUnaFantasia

I very much suspect that samples created for use with ordinary loudspeakers should be altered in order to fit flat planar loudspeakers; the vibrational characteristics of the latter will probably impose distortions unto the sound, and those should be compensated for.

On the other hand, I also very much suspect that this could be arranged.

David Lai

QuasiUnaFantasia Does EQ help?

QuasiUnaFantasia

David Lai Does EQ help?

I think that would be the natural first step, but I am not sure it would be enough to raise something from being "like a cheap speaker", as Del Vento mentioned, to something sounding excellent.

EDIT: There must to some extent be a problem due to the Doppler effect, because the plate must move according to low frequencies at the same time as moving according to higher ones. This automatically invokes that effect (which is actually a distortion of frequency). This is also seen in ordinary loudspeakers, but the effect is mitigated through having multiple speakers specialize in distinct frequency ranges. I guess the same thing could be done with a plate speaker setup by simply having several plates.

Pete14

QuasiUnaFantasia This is also seen in ordinary loudspeakers, but the effect is mitigated through having multiple speakers specialize in distinct frequency ranges. I guess the same thing could be done with a plate speaker setup by simply having several plates.

I wonder if the soundboard “density” changes from edge to edge; in other words, it starts thicker and then gets thinner to accommodate corresponding transducers/frequencies?

Because it doesn’t seem like it has “several plates,” but rather one “plate” covering the whole; or maybe they did something else, but I assume these aspects were thoroughly tested, and Kawai felt that the petite soundboard would perform better than the sum of its plate(s), despite, for the one thing it’s meant to do: render Shigeru in all its glory, and, if we’re to get speculative, render VSTs better than your average speaker setup.

I just don’t see how Kawai would make a move like this (ditching speakers) whence there was no pressure for them to do so (considering that their board/speaker system is well regarded), and this could backfire if it turns out that the NV10S actually does a better job at rendering Shigeru

« Previous Page Next Page »