FLKeys Lachnit MK23

porco_rosso · 2021-11-16T09:39:44+00:00

Hello, in the search for an upgrade for my Roland FP-30 I stumbled over the MIDI Controller Lachnit MK23 from FLKeys, Vienna. It's a small manufacturer founded and led by Friedrich Lachnit, a former Bösendorfer concert technician and after that the former head of their piano electronics department who led the CEUS Bösendorfer project. They use the Fatar TP/40Wood action as their base, refurbish the key surfaces and regulate it key for key according to concert grand guidelines and use a non-contact light sensor technology instead of rubber contacts resulting in a seemingly unparalleled MIDI accuracy, supporting also Hi-Res MIDI (up to 4096 steps). There a different knobs for changing the touch curves and dynamics without ever reducing the full MIDI range, the full range is always retained. In addition there is a three-way pedal that also uses continuous touchless light sensors. One can see perform the great Stefan Mendl on the Lachnit (probably the MK22 Imperial Version with the extra base keys) on this Video presenting the VSL Synchron Steinway: I find this very interesting as my main critic point to the Kawai VPC1 and Kawai MP11SE is not the feeling of the action itself - the GF1 especially feels very authentic for a digital piano action. It's the insufficient MIDI accuracy and reliability as well as range. As documented in various postings in german and english speaking forums the MP11(SE) does not send MIDI values under 25/30, which resulted in expressive restrictions in the < p range for me when using to virtual instruments like Pianoteq, which I could not really fix with velocity curve edits. It results in a more obvious feeling of playing a digital instruments that can not handle my input the way it was supposed to. Thats where my Roland FP30 is very good, especially regarding its price: It uses the whole MIDI velocity 0 - 127 range very reliably and I found it in that way more expressive allowing for more controlled nuances and color (closer to an good acoustic instrument) than the Kawai action. But the Roland action itself is not perfect, thats where the Kawais are better: The Roland is a bit sluggish and slow, not as smooth and it's more difficult to accelerate the hammers above the let-off (difficult to describe, bot on an acoustic piano you can "throw" the hammer using your acceleration before your finger reaches the ground if necessary - thats way better simulated in the GF1 for example). For example playing the black keys staccato in p/pp is too sluggish and difficult on the Roland compared to an acoustic piano action or the GF. So I think maybe the Lachnit MK23 would give me a faster, more responsive and direct superior playability compared to the FP-30 and an extremely accurate MIDI response vor very nuanced playing, especially combined with Pianoteq but also sample libraries with very many samples layers. But it's impossible to test the Lachnit and there is also not much information on the internet. There are some references (but some of them only in german) on their website in which people claim superiority to the VPC1 and even Yamaha GT/N1/2/3. But thats their website of course… There is also an interesting About and FAQ on their website. It's pretty costly. MK23 (3990€) + MIDI High Resolution CC#88 Dynamic resolution (198€) + pedal (264€) + transport to Germany (80 €) = at least 4532 €. But it's handcrafted in Austria with a seemingly high built quality and the components seem to be resourced in Austria and the EU only so the price seems justified, especially if the keyboard and MIDI is that good and works for, let's say, 20 years+. Does anybody of you has ever seen or played or heard anything additional of the Lachnit keyboards?

porco_rosso

I made a decision! It's a PHA-50 but…

porco_rosso …in a compact, transportable form factor: RD-2000/FP-90X… (I don't want a furniture piano anymore)

… as a furniture piano! Why? Initially I didn't want a furniture piano because I think it is more difficult to move and sell in the future.

But: The Roland RD-2000 costs 2099€. The Stand K&M 18950 are 130€. The pedal unit RPU-3 is 125€. There is no sheet music stand included, so thats another 50€: 2404€ in total!

Thats exactly 592€ more than the Roland HP 704 with the PHA-50 in Rosewood (1812 €) I just ordered. The HP 704 already includes three pedals, speakers and a high music rest. It offers a perfect height if I want to put small monitors speakers for VST playback on the piano. I don't need any of the extra sounds the RD-2000 provides. And: as a Roland furniture piano it offers a 10 years guarantee here! Besides the RD-2000 is ugly as fuck with all the lights and buttons, the HP 704 is more classy. That's a lot bang for the buck. The 600€ difference are a good amount that could serve me well with the purchase of a new computer for VST playback. 🙂 Somehow I am certain i made a good decision. Roland makes good products with a better QC than Kawai. The FP-30 I have is an excellent piano in its price range. I would have liked the Kiyola KF-10 design wise if it wasn't priced so ridiculously high. It's 2.5x the price of the HP 704, for the same action and sound…

RIP

porco_rosso It's funny that I needed to play very good samples for a few ours to notice this.

I think there is more to this. I am not sure what it is. I actually like listening to PTQ better than VSL (in some conditions, see the other conversation about black Friday options).

Speculation:

digital sound is all 💩 but we don't realize immediately, only later: so new things sound better than old
some digital pianos are easier to make a decent/ok sound, whereas with some others it's much more difficult, e.g. PTQ
small things are huge and we don't realize: I've just discovered that changing the velocity curve in PTQ by just one or two numbers (i.e. putting a 112 instead of 110) changed the sound and the behavior so much that I had the impression of playing a totally different instrument
something else, e.g. listening fatigue.

In any case, best of luck with the HP704

porco_rosso

RIP In any case, best of luck with the HP704

Thanks!

I think you are right in parts: A Digital Piano will never sound like an acoustic. Small velocity curve changes make a huge difference! And often new things are exciting and sound better at first.

But: New is not always better. Whenever I sat down at a Yamaha, Kawai, Casio or Roland digital piano I never had the feeling that it sounds better than Pianoteq although these were new sounds to me. It was the Nord samples that made me realize that.

RIP I actually like listening to PTQ better than VSL (in some conditions, see the other conversation about black Friday options).

Are you referring to the video of pianolifter? I always thought that her Pianoteq recordings were very good, but the VSL recordings sound much better and so much more real to me. I certainly don't like the three grands in the big concert hall as I prefer the more intimate piano in the smaller stage and would prefer the 280VC, the Blüthner and the Bösendrofer Upright or the older Vienna Imperial from my impressions.

RIP

porco_rosso Are you referring to the video of pianolifter?

Yes, I've just posted an additional comment there. Listen to the same Chopin's scherzo that she played with both PTQ and VSL and let us know in that conversation what you think.

vagfilm

porco_rosso
Regarding the piano, the Roland HP704 is a smart decision, and one that I have also been contemplating for a long time. However I am more inclined to the FP90X, but will wait for the successor of the Yamaha P515, and decide between the two (or Roland HP804...)

Regarding the VST, if classical is your main point, I would go with either the Garritan CFX (the Lite version is discontinued, but buy the full version from an american vendor such as sweetwater - cheaper than buying in europe in euros - cost 140 euros), or with the VSL Bosendorfer 280VC standard for 215 euros (only until the 30th november). These are probably safer bets than the Bluethner or the D274... You will need to buy a "vienna key" until the new iLok system is launched, but I think that the price of the vienna key will be given back on your next purchase (devious guys at VSL...)

Regarding computer, David B is the expert on Macs and VSL, but I think that you don't even need an M1 mac mini...

RIP

vagfilm the Lite version is discontinued, but buy the full version from an american vendor such as sweetwater - cheaper than buying in europe in euros - cost 140 euros

Discontinued? Perhaps in Europe… The Lite can be still purchased in several US places, e.g.

https://www.proaudiostar.com/garritan-abbey-road-lte.html

https://www.timespace.com/collections/garritan/products/garritan-abbey-road-studios-cfx-lite

https://www.garritan.com/products/cfx-concert-grand-virtual-piano-lite/ (FWIW they are in my hometown)

In fact it seems like the Lite has been upgraded, but the Full not yet!

From all of them, Lite + upgrade to Full (immediately or -- better -- later after you know if you really need it) is cheaper than purchasing the Full version directly!

vagfilm

My mistake... It did no show up on sweetwater where i bought it, and I could swear that I saw "no longer available" on Garritan website (it listed only the cfx for 199 and the upgrade...) . I assumed it was discontinued.

porco_rosso

vagfilm Regarding the piano, the Roland HP704 is a smart decision, and one that I have also been contemplating for a long time. However I am more inclined to the FP90X, but will wait for the successor of the Yamaha P515, and decide between the two (or Roland HP804...)

The P515 is also a great package (action/samples/build quality/functions) for a very attractive price, but I prefer the PHA-50 action. The FP90X would have been a candidate too, but it is not available here for a long time unfortunately.

vagfilm Regarding the VST, if classical is your main point, I would go with either the Garritan CFX (the Lite version is discontinued, but buy the full version from an american vendor such as sweetwater - cheaper than buying in europe in euros - cost 140 euros), or with the VSL Bosendorfer 280VC standard for 215 euros (only until the 30th november). These are probably safer bets than the Bluethner or the D274... You will need to buy a "vienna key" until the new iLok system is launched, but I think that the price of the vienna key will be given back on your next purchase (devious guys at VSL...)

Thank you for your tips! You are right, the 280VC seems like a great allrounder that also fit well with Anime and Film Music. Although I think the VSL Yamaha CFX (or the Garritan CFX) would also be a great allrounder and it always sounds great on youtube. But I think I prefer the more intimate Stage B to a big concert hall for practice. However, especially for classical and romantic music I like the very lyrical and singing tone of the Blüthner. Listen for example to Chopins Nocturne Op. 55 No.1 at VSLs website - the first note alone! I played several Blüthners both in original and restored condition (the 190cm long Model 6 is very common here) here in Berlin and the VSL really sounds like these Blüthners and captures their unique tone very well. I also love other old german grands like my teachers old Bechstein - thats how a piano sounds to me. 🙂

vagfilm Regarding computer, David B is the expert on Macs and VSL, but I think that you don't even need an M1 mac mini...

I opened an other thread for this. 🙂

RIP Yes, I've just posted an additional comment there. Listen to the same Chopin's scherzo that she played with both PTQ and VSL and let us know in that conversation what you think.

I will!

porco_rosso

Than the next question: Standard or Full Library for the 280VC / Blüthner (/Bösendorfer Upright)? So many decisions…

vagfilm

I am an absolute beginner, so my comments are more from a listener's perspective than from a player's. Garritan and Bluethner cost the same (the Bluethner slightly more because of the key and maybe computer upgrade, but the Garritan is not easy on resources also, particularly SSD). The Garritan records very well, and is safer to play; the VSL D274 is more lively and unforgiving: it forces me to get better at touch control, and I like that. I haven't used the Garritan in the last couple of weeks, and I don't think I will use it again other than for occasional rendering of midi files. But who knows?

I am a stubborn believer of "one piano fits all": I don't want to have one mellow piano for nocturnes, a D274 for Rachmaninov (Rach??? Who am I kidding???), a C7 for jazz (Jarrett??? Kidding again???)... I want a piano VST that can sound differently depending on touch alone (not even through presets) and I will have to learn how to extract different tones from it, just like I learnt to extract mellow, bright or aggressive tones from the same acoustic classical guitar.

If you particularly like the tone of the Bluethner (still not my cup of tea...), go for it. It sounds to me that it will give you a very good connection as a player more than as a listener: it does sound like a real piano is in front of you.

CyberGene

vagfilm I am a stubborn believer of "one piano fits all"

I also tend to seek such a piano and I think I've long ago found it in the Garritan CFX 🙂 I haven't compared it to many others. It just happened to be the second piano I tried (after Vintage D) and it worked perfectly.

vagfilm

CyberGene I also tend to seek such a piano and I think I've long ago found it in the Garritan CFX

I agree, and would be happy with the Garritan if there was nothing else. But the VSL pianos (and for me, the D274 uncontrallable beast that I need to tame) are great learning tools and a pleasure to listen to, and at this point I enjoy and need that extra challenge.

porco_rosso

Listening further to demos I really really like the VC 280 (so clear and clean and powerful, but not in that almost aggressive Steinway D sense, it's still more gentle), and as said the warm, lyrical Blüthner. I am not 100% sure about the Bösendorfer Upright - its almost to mellow, but for some pieces the highs are so amazing and delicate. And its so "cheap" for a VSL offering right now. 😅 The Modern U would offer another upright character.

I think I would prefer Garritan CFX to the VSL CFX/D/Imperial as the big hall concert grand.

porco_rosso

The sale is ending today and I haven't made up my mind… I have 2 questions, maybe you can help me:

If I buy it today, does the 14-day-return period starts today too? Or when I activate the product on my machine? Because I neither have the computer nor the Vienna Key right now.
Full Library of 280VC/Blüthner/BU for 785€ or Standard Library of all six pianos for 1035€…?

MHirsch

porco_rosso

Return policy is 14 days from the day of purchase
That, you’ll have to decide 😊 IMHO save money and time, invest the time into playing.

porco_rosso

Thanks! The 280VC, Blüthner and Bösendorfer Upright it is! The Refund policy is really great. I don't know if I would have invested so much in software pianos if it weren't for this.

vagfilm

During the 14 days, check if you really need the full mics. In my view, the only good advantage of the full mics is the ribbon close mic, but I am not willing to spend 200 euros for an additional close mic. The rest of the mics only add distance to the piano and bog down the computer: 1 close + 1 mid mic is the way to go for me.
If you are happy enough with condenser + decca, you can return the 3 full versions (or some of them) and get standard versions of some others.

porco_rosso

Thanks! Yes, the main reason for me to go for the full library vs. standard are the additional close tube mics as I prefer are more warm, intimate, full bodied sound for personal practicing and playing. I will check if it's worth the premium. 🙂

It seems that the HP 704 will arrive on Friday and the Vienna Key on Monday.

HZPiano

porco_rosso Vienna Key on Monday

I'm not sure until which day the VSL sale prices are available? (Those may end anytime (very) soon now?)

Are you?

Cheers and happy playing,

porco_rosso

The sale prices were available until yesterday and I bought the Vienna Key and the three beautiful pianos yesterday already, I just have to wait till Monday for the key to arrive here. 🙂

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