FLKeys Lachnit MK23

porco_rosso The samples are wonderful. These are the first built-in samples in a digital piano I really enjoyed and the first that really sounded like a piano in front of you. And so many of them! I enjoyed the amazing White Grand (Steinway B), the Royal Grand 3D (Yamaha S6 Binaural), the Amber Upright (Grotrian-Steinweg Upright) and the Grand Upright (Yamaha U3) in particular, but all where excellent.

It sounds (pun intended) like you fell in love for this instrument. You are lauding it so much that now I want to buy it! If I do it, my wife would pour hot vinegar on all my instruments, and change the door lock the next time I go out. For the sake of my marital life, please stop of being so explicit 🤣

porco_rosso A price around 2100 € like the Roland RD-2000 or Kawai MP11SE would be more appropriate and I would take it in a heartbeat for that price. Unfortunately the price is 3250 €

Mmmm, what's that compared to the NU1x which you just returned? Peanuts. Moreover, Kawai is supplying the action, so they may have an agreement in which it must be priced well outside of their direct competition, the MP11 and the ES920 (which I think has exactly the same action doesn't it?)

I'm surprised you have not bought it yet. I wonder why. By the way, have you returned the VPC1 already?

porco_rosso If there weren't and VST and simple libraries

Really? You said that this one sounded like a piano in front of you, and I never heard anybody saying that for virtual instruments.

porco_rosso There has to be reason other than they can't do better. Of course they could…

Here is my speculation: digital piano sound (embedded or software) is always 💩 for some reasons only people with a Ph.D. in sound engineering know, but don't tell anybody, because otherwise they'll all be unemployed. However it takes a while for a casual listener to realize, so a new piano sound it's often "good" since one does not immediately realizes the shortcomings. The sound becomes "bad" only after some time in which the listener learns the details of the sound and grow tired of it (note that this does not happen with acoustic piano sound). So my speculation is that the other sounds grew stale on you, whereas these ones are very new and very different.

As I said it's just speculation: anybody can disprove me by telling me that they bought a (software or digital) piano 5 or more years ago, they have been using the same sound since them, and they still think it's the best thing after sliced bread. I've never heard anybody say that, whereas I've heard countless acoustic piano owners saying exactly that.

In any case, some additional unrequested advice, if I were you.

1. Is it possible to get a sound-only module from Nord? If not as a normal product, and since they are a small company, I'd contact them to ask if they'd be interested in making one for you. They may be interested in exploring the opportunity, because the action is not theirs so they might want to "break free" from it (at least that's what I'd do if I were running that company).
2. Go to the store every day for several days in a row. If it's a different store, tell them your story with the other instruments and tell them that you don't want to buy and then return as you have with several other instruments before
3. If you are still in love after doing 2, buy it! It's not perfect, and it's somewhat expensive, but still cheaper than the NU1x and better (?) at least for you (?) -- frankly from your message it's not clear what you don't like.
4. Well, it sounds a bit that you don't love the action, but you still like it. Later on you can buy a Kawai Concert Artist, perhaps an old second hand ones (which in the USA can be found cheaply and still have very nice wooden actions) and use it as a controller.
5. Or just try other Nord keyboards and see how you like those!
6. Or better, just forget about it as I was nudging you earlier 😁

Best of luck!

RIP It sounds (pun intended) like you fell in love for this instrument. You are lauding it so much that now I want to buy it! If I do it, my wife would pour hot vinegar on all my instruments, and change the door lock the next time I go out. For the sake of my marital life, please stop of being so explicit 🤣

Haha! Yeah, I really liked it as a whole. But I am not sure if it would be something for you, as it seems to me that your focus lies primarily on an authentic action (hence your hybrid). The action is very nice, but there really are better/more authentic actions on the market.

RIP I'm surprised you have not bought it yet. I wonder why.

I am still waiting for the refund money of the NU1X. And it's a lot of money for a slab with a "mid range" action, thats why I am unsure. Psychological issue. 😅

RIP By the way, have you returned the VPC1 already?

It is sitting packaged in its box waiting for the shipment. 🙂

RIP Really? You said that this one sounded like a piano in front of you, and I never heard anybody saying that for virtual instruments.

I know. I listened often to some VSL and Modern U examples. They sound very nice, but not as real as the Nord Samples. Maybe most likely the Vienna Imperial with it slightly out of tune notes in the higher registers. But I would still need a new computer to run these VSTs.

RIP Is it possible to get a sound-only module from Nord? If not as a normal product, and since they are a small company, I'd contact them to ask if they'd be interested in making one for you. They may be interested in exploring the opportunity, because the action is not theirs so they might want to "break free" from it (at least that's what I'd do if I were running that company).

I think they would have made it already! But I thought that I could maybe combine a MP11SE with the most affordable (maybe used) Nord thing with the access to piano sample library. But of course it isn't guaranteed that the MP11SE and the samples work as good as the built-in RH3 in the NORD with the samples.

RIP If you are still in love after doing 2, buy it! It's not perfect, and it's somewhat expensive, but still cheaper than the NU1x and better (?) at least for you (?) -- frankly from your message it's not clear what you don't like.

I wouldn't say that the Nord Grand is per se better than the NU1X. There are very different of course both have some design related pros and cons. The action of the Yamaha is real of course, the built-in speaker system is more powerful. But of course it's more expensive, much heavier and not portable and has not such good samples and less of them.

RIP Well, it sounds a bit that you don't love the action, but you still like it. Later on you can buy a Kawai Concert Artist, perhaps an old second hand ones (which in the USA can be found cheaply and still have very nice wooden actions) and use it as a controller.

I am less and less obsessed with "the perfect action" (hybrid) in a digital piano. The action is almost never the limiting factor for most of amateur players. It (hybrid actions) just make the digital pianos way more expensive, heavy and bulky, and harder to sell in the future. It's amazing to see how many professionals on youtube for example have a PHA-50/NWX/RH3/RM3G2/GFI/II/III or comparable action and are perfectly happy with it.

RIP Or just try other Nord keyboards and see how you like those!

I tried the Nord Piano 5 or something very short, but the Fatar action was clearly a keyboard action, not a piano action, so I just played it for 2 minutes or so.

RIP If you are still in love after doing 2, buy it!

Maybe I will. 🙂

There is a Kontakt library of Nord samples, that may be of interest to you. As far as I know, it is sold privately by the developer, which is a brasilian guy that has produced a few Kontakt libraries of known synths and keyboards. I assume it needs full Kontakt, and I assume that Nord is not too happy about it since all sales are private; moreover, I have no idea about the playability. But it does sound VERY close to the original samples to get me intrigued for months... However, the Nord tones all sound too much mellow and velvety for me.

Hey,
Yesterday after work I was again at Justmusic. I played again the Nord Grand, the Kawai MP11SE as well as the Yamaha CP88 and P515 and the Roland RD 2000.
It confirmed my impressions. The NG has a light, quick, super responsive, shallower, dynamic, fun to play action. A bit plasticky, and "cheap" feeling, short pivot and springy, but very accurate and fast. The MIDI response is very accurate for the whole range. The MP11SE has the more serious action. Heavier, with longer pivots, a way more authentic feel, not springy; fast as well but different, not as shallow and stiff, more smooth and floaty. Definitely the more realistic action - very responsive as well. But: doesn't send velocities below 25. With a bit adjustment I could kinda solve it this time in Pianoteq, but I had open headphones and it was a bit noisy, so I'm not a 100% sure about this. The responsiveness with the internal samples is very good, although I miss the attack and bite of the Nord Samples. The GF1 is definitely the better action for home practice for classical piano especially if you want to transition your practice on a real grand but I can see that the NG action is the perfect action for a stage piano, especially for Jazz, Rock and Pop. The other action were all fine, but not 100% my cup of tea.

The samples of Nord are soooo good. Everything I wrote yesterday still applies. These samples made me realize where Pianoteq (almost everywhere tone-wise) is lacking, not the Kawai, Yamaha, Casio samples or Rolands Modeling.

vagfilm However, the Nord tones all sound too much mellow and velvety for me.

This is imo really not the case. The velvet grand maybe. 😃 The Nord samples have definitely more attack and get more dynamic and brighter than the Kawai and Roland Samples, thats part of what it makes so fun to play.

Thanks for the video. Sounds so great. But no White Grand, the best of the bunch! And kinda strange business model… 😅
Imo the Nord is too expensive for my purpose. If I was searching for a transportable stage piano for gigging with piano focus and had to choose between RD2000, CP88, MP7SE and so on I would choose the NG. But for home practice I think will choose the MP11SE.
The MP11SE makes everything that I didn't like about the VPC better: The action is a bit lighter and feels more responsive; it has a longer pivot; the key surface isn't slippery; the pedal unit is much better. Only the strange MIDI behavior makes me doubt it a bit.
On the way home I listened again to different VSTs and I think that the Vienna Imperial sounds excellent. It reminds me of the White Grand of Nord. I listened to all the other relevant VSTs for dozen of hours on youtube. Garritan CFX, all VSL Synchrons, Modern U, Noir, Ravenscroft and so on - only the Vienna Imperial evokes that kind of authentic warm piano feeling for me. All others sound excellent of course, but too polished and sterile. Unfortunately that would still mean I need another computer - I doubt my MacBook Air 2013 with 1,3 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5 and 4 GB of Ram would handle the old Vienna Imperial.

porco_rosso doubt my MacBook Air 2013 with 1,3 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5 and 4 GB of Ram would handle the old Vienna Imperial.

Very little chance, I'd say. None, to be more precise. I guess.

😲

Cheers and a good weekend,

HZ

vagfilm There is a Kontakt library of Nord samples,

porco_rosso And kinda strange business model…

Yeah, really strange to say the least. What's next a sample library of PTQ? 🤣

Since it got buried in the discussion (and perhaps the answer is simply "no", but trying can't hurt), I was nudging @porco_rosso to contact Nord to see if they have (or can make a custom) standalone hw module exactly like the Nord Grand (well perhaps with different form factor, but not necessarily so) without the keyboard. Would be nice to be able to purchase and use that to augment one's digital piano of choice instead of computer, VSTs, and the like?

porco_rosso The MP11SE makes everything that I didn't like about the VPC better:

I did not try the VPC or any instrument with similar actions, but I did try several pianos with actions similar to the MP11SE (and I even owned one for a few years). I don't think I've ever tried one with exactly the same as the MP11, however I found that they are all extremely similar to each other. In my opinion, it's the best action on a digital piano, short of a hybrid obviously.

porco_rosso But for home practice I think will choose the MP11SE.

Given your previous "return" experience, and the concern about the lowest velocity settings, I still nudge you to go to the store several more times before committing.

The Nord Grand samples and the constant listening to VSL (Synchon) Pianos and other great VSTs have spoiled me. Pianoteq sounds very fake to me now, in all registers. It was really tiring for my ears when practicing yesterday and I really couldn't enjoy it anymore. And because it sounds so fake the impression of the great playability also decreased for me, especially in the higher dynamic ranges. Actually I noticed this already unconsciously when playing the Nord Grand - although I played at a louder level with my headphones for a two days due to the noise in the store I didn't notice any fatigue.

It's funny that I needed to play very good samples for a few ours to notice this. Actually I know how acoustic pianos sound, and I played certainly nearly hundred different uprights and grands in Berlin when I searched an acoustic piano for me. I play my teachers beautiful old 1920/30s Bechstein regularly and had an acoustic upright at home for half a year. But Pianoteq sounded good enough for me - until I played with good samples. It was really eye opening.

Also the PHA4 is so sluggish.

The fog is clearing up for me. What I want/need is/are

• a (few) good sounding, good playable sample library(/ies) (VSL, Garritan, Modern U)
• therefore a new powerful laptop/desktop (Mac M1?)
• an action that is more responsive and quick than my PHA-4 with a longer pivot and a great accurate MIDI response: PHA-50…
• …in a compact, transportable form factor: RD-2000/FP-90X… (I don't want a furniture piano anymore)
• …that is available, because I don't want to wait a few months: RD-2000

I like the GF1 action a bit better - but my impressions is that as a MIDI Controller for VSTs the PHA-50 is the better choice. That's where I am right now.

RIP Since it got buried in the discussion (and perhaps the answer is simply "no", but trying can't hurt), I was nudging @eddiepiano to contact Nord to see if they have (or can make a custom) standalone hw module exactly like the Nord Grand (well perhaps with different form factor, but not necessarily so) without the keyboard. Would be nice to be able to purchase and use that to augment one's digital piano of choice instead of computer, VSTs, and the like?

The NG samples are great, but I would't pay a few hundred / a thousand Euros for them. I am sure there are equally good VSTs out there.

@porco_rosso What do you usually play? Classical? Jazz? Pop?

80% Classical, 20% Film/Anime Music.

I made a decision! It's a PHA-50 but…

porco_rosso …in a compact, transportable form factor: RD-2000/FP-90X… (I don't want a furniture piano anymore)

… as a furniture piano! Why? Initially I didn't want a furniture piano because I think it is more difficult to move and sell in the future.

But: The Roland RD-2000 costs 2099€. The Stand K&M 18950 are 130€. The pedal unit RPU-3 is 125€. There is no sheet music stand included, so thats another 50€: 2404€ in total!

Thats exactly 592€ more than the Roland HP 704 with the PHA-50 in Rosewood (1812 €) I just ordered. The HP 704 already includes three pedals, speakers and a high music rest. It offers a perfect height if I want to put small monitors speakers for VST playback on the piano. I don't need any of the extra sounds the RD-2000 provides. And: as a Roland furniture piano it offers a 10 years guarantee here! Besides the RD-2000 is ugly as fuck with all the lights and buttons, the HP 704 is more classy. That's a lot bang for the buck. The 600€ difference are a good amount that could serve me well with the purchase of a new computer for VST playback. 🙂 Somehow I am certain i made a good decision. Roland makes good products with a better QC than Kawai. The FP-30 I have is an excellent piano in its price range. I would have liked the Kiyola KF-10 design wise if it wasn't priced so ridiculously high. It's 2.5x the price of the HP 704, for the same action and sound…

porco_rosso It's funny that I needed to play very good samples for a few ours to notice this.

I think there is more to this. I am not sure what it is. I actually like listening to PTQ better than VSL (in some conditions, see the other conversation about black Friday options).

Speculation:

• digital sound is all 💩 but we don't realize immediately, only later: so new things sound better than old
• some digital pianos are easier to make a decent/ok sound, whereas with some others it's much more difficult, e.g. PTQ
• small things are huge and we don't realize: I've just discovered that changing the velocity curve in PTQ by just one or two numbers (i.e. putting a 112 instead of 110) changed the sound and the behavior so much that I had the impression of playing a totally different instrument
• something else, e.g. listening fatigue.

In any case, best of luck with the HP704

RIP In any case, best of luck with the HP704

Thanks!

I think you are right in parts: A Digital Piano will never sound like an acoustic. Small velocity curve changes make a huge difference! And often new things are exciting and sound better at first.

But: New is not always better. Whenever I sat down at a Yamaha, Kawai, Casio or Roland digital piano I never had the feeling that it sounds better than Pianoteq although these were new sounds to me. It was the Nord samples that made me realize that.

RIP I actually like listening to PTQ better than VSL (in some conditions, see the other conversation about black Friday options).

Are you referring to the video of pianolifter? I always thought that her Pianoteq recordings were very good, but the VSL recordings sound much better and so much more real to me. I certainly don't like the three grands in the big concert hall as I prefer the more intimate piano in the smaller stage and would prefer the 280VC, the Blüthner and the Bösendrofer Upright or the older Vienna Imperial from my impressions.

porco_rosso Are you referring to the video of pianolifter?

Yes, I've just posted an additional comment there. Listen to the same Chopin's scherzo that she played with both PTQ and VSL and let us know in that conversation what you think.

porco_rosso
Regarding the piano, the Roland HP704 is a smart decision, and one that I have also been contemplating for a long time. However I am more inclined to the FP90X, but will wait for the successor of the Yamaha P515, and decide between the two (or Roland HP804...)

Regarding the VST, if classical is your main point, I would go with either the Garritan CFX (the Lite version is discontinued, but buy the full version from an american vendor such as sweetwater - cheaper than buying in europe in euros - cost 140 euros), or with the VSL Bosendorfer 280VC standard for 215 euros (only until the 30th november). These are probably safer bets than the Bluethner or the D274... You will need to buy a "vienna key" until the new iLok system is launched, but I think that the price of the vienna key will be given back on your next purchase (devious guys at VSL...)

Regarding computer, David B is the expert on Macs and VSL, but I think that you don't even need an M1 mac mini...

vagfilm the Lite version is discontinued, but buy the full version from an american vendor such as sweetwater - cheaper than buying in europe in euros - cost 140 euros

Discontinued? Perhaps in Europe… The Lite can be still purchased in several US places, e.g.

https://www.proaudiostar.com/garritan-abbey-road-lte.html

https://www.timespace.com/collections/garritan/products/garritan-abbey-road-studios-cfx-lite

https://www.garritan.com/products/cfx-concert-grand-virtual-piano-lite/ (FWIW they are in my hometown)

In fact it seems like the Lite has been upgraded, but the Full not yet!

From all of them, Lite + upgrade to Full (immediately or -- better -- later after you know if you really need it) is cheaper than purchasing the Full version directly!

My mistake... It did no show up on sweetwater where i bought it, and I could swear that I saw "no longer available" on Garritan website (it listed only the cfx for 199 and the upgrade...) . I assumed it was discontinued.

vagfilm Regarding the piano, the Roland HP704 is a smart decision, and one that I have also been contemplating for a long time. However I am more inclined to the FP90X, but will wait for the successor of the Yamaha P515, and decide between the two (or Roland HP804...)

The P515 is also a great package (action/samples/build quality/functions) for a very attractive price, but I prefer the PHA-50 action. The FP90X would have been a candidate too, but it is not available here for a long time unfortunately.

vagfilm Regarding the VST, if classical is your main point, I would go with either the Garritan CFX (the Lite version is discontinued, but buy the full version from an american vendor such as sweetwater - cheaper than buying in europe in euros - cost 140 euros), or with the VSL Bosendorfer 280VC standard for 215 euros (only until the 30th november). These are probably safer bets than the Bluethner or the D274... You will need to buy a "vienna key" until the new iLok system is launched, but I think that the price of the vienna key will be given back on your next purchase (devious guys at VSL...)

Thank you for your tips! You are right, the 280VC seems like a great allrounder that also fit well with Anime and Film Music. Although I think the VSL Yamaha CFX (or the Garritan CFX) would also be a great allrounder and it always sounds great on youtube. But I think I prefer the more intimate Stage B to a big concert hall for practice. However, especially for classical and romantic music I like the very lyrical and singing tone of the Blüthner. Listen for example to Chopins Nocturne Op. 55 No.1 at VSLs website - the first note alone! I played several Blüthners both in original and restored condition (the 190cm long Model 6 is very common here) here in Berlin and the VSL really sounds like these Blüthners and captures their unique tone very well. I also love other old german grands like my teachers old Bechstein - thats how a piano sounds to me. 🙂

vagfilm Regarding computer, David B is the expert on Macs and VSL, but I think that you don't even need an M1 mac mini...

I opened an other thread for this. 🙂

RIP Yes, I've just posted an additional comment there. Listen to the same Chopin's scherzo that she played with both PTQ and VSL and let us know in that conversation what you think.

I will!

Than the next question: Standard or Full Library for the 280VC / Blüthner (/Bösendorfer Upright)? So many decisions…

I am an absolute beginner, so my comments are more from a listener's perspective than from a player's. Garritan and Bluethner cost the same (the Bluethner slightly more because of the key and maybe computer upgrade, but the Garritan is not easy on resources also, particularly SSD). The Garritan records very well, and is safer to play; the VSL D274 is more lively and unforgiving: it forces me to get better at touch control, and I like that. I haven't used the Garritan in the last couple of weeks, and I don't think I will use it again other than for occasional rendering of midi files. But who knows?

I am a stubborn believer of "one piano fits all": I don't want to have one mellow piano for nocturnes, a D274 for Rachmaninov (Rach??? Who am I kidding???), a C7 for jazz (Jarrett??? Kidding again???)... I want a piano VST that can sound differently depending on touch alone (not even through presets) and I will have to learn how to extract different tones from it, just like I learnt to extract mellow, bright or aggressive tones from the same acoustic classical guitar.

If you particularly like the tone of the Bluethner (still not my cup of tea...), go for it. It sounds to me that it will give you a very good connection as a player more than as a listener: it does sound like a real piano is in front of you.

vagfilm I am a stubborn believer of "one piano fits all"

I also tend to seek such a piano and I think I've long ago found it in the Garritan CFX 🙂 I haven't compared it to many others. It just happened to be the second piano I tried (after Vintage D) and it worked perfectly.