FLKeys Lachnit MK23

The VPC1 arrived already an hour ago. I haven't turned it on yet because it's still very cold from the transportation.

But I recognized already two QC issues:

1. the right pedal is not okay. Its very noisy und it goes up very slowly… The middle pedal and the left are okay. Maybe I can use the middle pedal as the right pedal until it its fixed / the unit is changed.
2. Somehow they action isn't put right in the middle of the keybed. The gap to the case on the right side to the highest key is very wide. But it's not a cosmetic problem: The lowest key is on the left touches the case resulting in friction when pressing the key. That's not an urgent problem as I play this key almost never but it's not nice either.

Hello,

porco_rosso two QC issues

This is unacceptable. Did it come from a reputable dealer? Does the box show any indications of mishandling?

I'd say return it for a new unit or a full refund; choosing a different supplier if needed.

I wish you better luck than all of this.

Cheers and… better luck,

HZ

Yes, it did come from a reputable dealer (kirstein). The box doesn't show any indications of mishandling (DHL freight). One of the styrofoams inside was cracked, but I don't think that it had any impact, it was still in the right place. These two issues seem like factory QC issues.

I played it now for an hour.

My first impression: amazing. Really. I don't know why - but it's better than my last unit. The playability from ppp to fff is excellent. I played with the Pianoteq curve (green). I have none of my last issues regarding the velocity response in the lower range. The pianissimo range is very controllable - also for arpeggios and repitions near the fallboard. The "short" pivot is not a problem at all. The keys feel superb. The action feels fluid, smooth and fast. And so solid. Not too heavy at all. It doesn't feel "springy" like the Roland, Casio and Yamaha actions i played the last weeks. I hope thats not the honeymoon - but I hope not, as I was a bit disappointed at first because of the QC Issues. Now I don't want to send this VPC back. 😃 The right pedal works fine, just sounds and feels bad. But I mailed the dealer, I hope we can solve these two issues without returning the unit.

My VPC1 has also some weird weighting / velocity output issues (maybe you are familiar with this thread at the modartt forum: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886)

For example the tenor region is louder than the neighboring areas.

The QC is fucked up at Kawai. Just look in the CA79/99 thread at pw…

Beside from the QC issues: At first the VPC1 felt great, but after extensive playing for five days I realize it just isn't for me. I Like the Roland FP-30 better. When playing the Roland with Pianoteq I feel almost I have a real, breathing instrument under my fingers. My playing just translates very good and the velocity response is so accurate. It's more crisp and you get more feedback from the action. The connection between the action and the sound is great. That was even more case for the NU1X too.

When playing the VPC1 I have the feeling of pushing buttons that look like and are aligned like piano keys, but somehow the connection is not there, there is no proper feedback. It is not a latency issue - it's the same for both keyboards.

Also the keytops (which feel good) are slippery as fuck! I never played a piano where I had such grip problems. The pedal unit is a joke. Even without the defect the other two pedals feel awful.

And: Pianoteq sounds great with the FP-30 and NU1X - but somehow not as good with the VPC1. It's too bright and metallic and adjusting the velocity curve I can't get it feel and sound natural, it just doesn't sound as good as it could. I think the wide range of different opinions in Pianoteq may be caused by the fact that Pianoteq may differ in sound and response from keyboard to keyboard like no other (sample based) VST.

So now I will either:

• stay with the FP-30
• try the RD 2000 / some other Roland with PHA-50 (why is the Kiyola KF-10 so expensive?)
• or go completely insane and try the Lachnit

Btw. my main concern regarding the Lachnit is that it is a small company (without proper service network?) and it is possible that it doesn't exist in a year or two… what to do if there are problems?

porco_rosso I think the wide range of different opinions in Pianoteq may be caused by the fact that Pianoteq may differ in sound and response from keyboard to keyboard

There might be some truth to that. I've also noticed that what I don't like in PT is further exaggerated when changing velocity curves on the controller. I think unlike a sample-based piano where every velocity layer is recorded from a real instrument hence being real, in Pianoteq the dynamic extremities are not very realistic and if the touch response is shifted towards a particular region, it would reveal the synthetic character way too much.

Also try the fp90x. It's newer and cheaper than the rd2000, and it has thw pha50 and audio interface...

Thanks vagfilm! I will.

Has anyone ever tried a Nord Grand? I am listening to different classical pieces with its samples I must say that these are the most beautiful and realistic samples I heard. VSL, Garritan, etc sound great, but in the Nord samples I hear exactly the little touch of warmth and imperfection that makes the treble really shine and sing. I really love Pianoteq for its playability and the huge amount of different timbres, and the sound is better than most built-in dp sound, but they haven't nailed the piano sound yet and the Nord Grand samples sound so great.

I know that the Nord Grand action is not Kawais High-End action, but after my experience with the VPC1 and GF actions that mustn't be a bad thing…

Afaik, the nord grand is basically a es920 with the letoff plasticky thingy removed (and internal velocity curve customized for the nord samples)... And maybe better QC of final assembly, but for the same cost you can buy 2 es920...

The removal of the "let-off-simulation" would be a rather positive thing. 🙂

https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-piano-library

I encourage you to listen to their sample library! I didn't know Nord had such a big variety of pianos. All of them sound glorious, I am very impressed. Especially the warm, resonating, shimmering qualities of pianos is captured very well. The glassiness in the treble and the thickness of the tone. It's a pity they have only a few classical demo pieces. Grands: Steinway B, Yamaha S6, Blüthner Model One, Shigeru Kawai SK-7, Fazioli (212, 228?), Yamaha S4, Bösendorfer Imperial, Steinway D, Yamaha C7. They also have a wonderful selection of Uprights: Yamaha U3, Schimmel, Grotrian-Steinweg, Bösendorfer, Petrof and some swedish pianos.

I also realized that Animenz (a classically trained pianist who makes great covers of anime pieces) used a Nord Grand when his Steinway Grand wasn't available. I always wondered what digital piano this was and why it sounds so good (I thought it was a VST). Without the red finish I didn't recognized it as a Nord.

I am tempted. 😉

I've always been impressed with Nord piano samples, however when I have tested Nord pianos, there's always something wrong, not sure if it's the velocity response, dynamics mapping, the attack or whatever, but the samples just sound unrealistic to me, the whole experience is weird. But I haven't tested a Nord Grand, maybe they spent time to improve upon that.

I confess that I have not listened too much to Nord samples, but my first impression is that they have a lot of well applied reverb that masks the note tails and blends everything together. With long lasting notes at high velocities, for me it has the same problems of overwhelming soundscaping of Pianoteq: harmonics lasting artificially long (in a wood soundboard, new excitations cancel old frequencies, and only the room reverberation lasts longer). But the classical pianist Josh Wright swears on his Nord Piano (old model, maybe Nord Piano 3, with Fatar keys), so - again - I am probably biased and wrong...

porco_rosso 50 (why is the Kiyola KF-10 so expensive?)

It's real wood and some veneer, a modern furniture design. It looks nice in the photos, to me, minimalist 'scandinavian' design that might suit some decors. In the flesh however I found it less compelling, rather lightweight and flimsy looking in appearance.

CyberGene Agreed. I'm not sure what it is, but it reminds me of a situation where everything is right on paper, but the integration is off. The samples themselves sound great in a recording but when playing, it feels/sounds a bit unnatural? I haven't tried a Nord Grand though.

Hello,

@porco_rosso, Your upgrade adventure has been going on like this, even running in circles, for quite some time now.

Unsolicited advice: I strongly recommend putting all of this to rest (having your FP30 to play on) for at least six to twelve months. Totally at rest -- and that includes even thinking about piano upgrades.

After that, you stand a chance of naturally knowing what to do next, if anything at all.

Cheers and a happy peace of mind,

HZ

CyberGene I've always been impressed with Nord piano samples, however when I have tested Nord pianos, there's always something wrong,

I've had this experience with all sampled or modeled pianos that I've tried. Not so with acoustic. Just because I'm replying to @CyberGene let me make one PTQ example: don't you love how PTQ sounds in the hands of Phil Best? Yet you hate how it sounds when you play it. Replace PTQ and Phil Best with another virtual instrument and another performer, and the same applies (perhaps with like/dislike instead of love/hate but still). That has been my experience with everything I've tried. I specify besides the acoustic because it really felt like I am an incompetent pianist, so obviously anything sounds 💩 in my hands. Well, not the acoustic pianos, they still sound glorious even if I play them badly.

HZPiano @eddiepiano, Your upgrade adventure has been going on like this, even running in circles, for quite some time now.

Unsolicited advice: I strongly recommend putting all of this to rest (having your FP30 to play on) for at least six to twelve months. Totally at rest -- and that includes even thinking about piano upgrades.

I second that. Unless you think your FP30 is totally unacceptable, just take some time off this search. Been there, done that: a period of not thinking will help.

porco_rosso

I've tried the Nord grand and it's nice and the action feels good but nothing special compared to Yamaha p-515 or Roland p90X or Kawai ES920. I agree with @CyberGene that the touch response is a little off in Nord pianos, although a little better in the grand. I also think the Nord grand looks cool but for me it's an unnecessarily bulky design for having a standard folded action and no built in speakers. I like the idea of the flexibility with sound banks in Nord pianos (and Dexibel) that you can download. I think that where Nord really shines is in live performance and not necessarily for home use. But as a Swede I still encourage you to get one🙂

Hey, thank you all for your answers!

spanishbuddha It's real wood and some veneer, a modern furniture design. It looks nice in the photos, to me, minimalist 'scandinavian' design that might suit some decors. In the flesh however I found it less compelling, rather lightweight and flimsy looking in appearance.

It looks good in the photos, but I haven't seen it in real life. But it's to expensive for what it is for me. It's 4600€ here. I don't even like Rolands built-in sounds.

RIP I second that. Unless you think your FP30 is totally unacceptable, just take some time off this search. Been there, done that: a period of not thinking will help.

Thanks. I think this is a good advice! But that is the thing: I find more Roland more and more unenjoyable. Slow and sluggish. I am able achieve everything right now, but the action works against me. It is a good low price action; but not a "fun", quick, responsive action. The best acoustic action I tried were exactly this: light, but very responsive and dynamic (old Bechstein and Steinway grands as well as many old german uprights).

As you all already noticed I am a bit crazy. So I went to justmusic to test the Nord Grand as well the other contenders. I think I played the Nord close to 3 hours, lol.

I was a bit underwhelmed in the very first moment when I sat down the Nord Grand. The action felt plasticky and springy, rather "cheap". But with every note I played I realized it's an extremely responsive and quick action, more on the medium-light than heavy side. I enjoyed playing it very much and it responded very well. For example playing quick staccato repetitions in p feels more natural and easy on the RH3 than on the PHA-4. The action feels a bit "short" and "stiff" in a "good" sense, like the NU1X for example. There is no let-off "simulation", and I think this contribute to the very responsive feel without the plastic nipple thing that mushes around. There is no graduated weighting from the bottom to top. I was a bit unsure about before playing it, but it really made no difference at all while playing and transitioning to the gradually weighted actions.

The samples are wonderful. These are the first built-in samples in a digital piano I really enjoyed and the first that really sounded like a piano in front of you. And so many of them! I enjoyed the amazing White Grand (Steinway B), the Royal Grand 3D (Yamaha S6 Binaural), the Amber Upright (Grotrian-Steinweg Upright) and the Grand Upright (Yamaha U3) in particular, but all where excellent. The different reverb setting (Stage, Hall, Room/Home) can be adjusted quickly and sound authentic. It's easy to get a different tones with the soft/medium/hard timbre setting for different pieces. All in all very versatile, great, authentic pianos. Very dynamic! With the typical woody, warm, brassy, stringy piano sound. And I have to admit, so much more natural than Pianoteq. I played different Yamaha, Kawai and Rolands today as well and it's amazing how much better the Nord samples are. I just don't understand why especially Yamaha and Kawai as piano companies with wonderful acoustic pianos can't (or don't want?) make better samples. There has to be reason other than they can't do better. Of course they could…

My impression of the interaction action - samples -> playability was excellent, nothing weird imo from pp to fff. Maybe this is not the case for the Nord Pianos with the Fatar actions.

The settings are very easy understandable and I like the layout very much. The piano itself with the wood finish and its vintage style is beautiful. I played with my Sennheiser HD 650 headphones. However, the Nord Monitors sounded good with high resolution, good sound stage, very "open" (the sound "detached" from the speakers") and enough base (better than most built-in pieano speakers). Maybe some Genelec or Neumann would be even better.

If there weren't and VST and simple libraries I would have made my choice with ease. As a stand alone stage piano it's excellent. But I feel it's a bit overpriced. A price around 2100 € like the Roland RD-2000 or Kawai MP11SE would be more appropriate and I would take it in a heartbeat for that price. Unfortunately the price is 3250 € - without the music desk. I really like the idea of having all in one without having to deal with my computer and VSTs - good enough action, great samples, great sound for home use with the monitors and (trans)portable when necessary. The whole package and the sound was inspiring…

I appreciate the MP11SE action more and more. It felt very good and the playability is excellent. I personally really don't like the Kawai samples. They sound amazingly sterile, compressed, cold and dead. Even in their newest high-end digital pianos. Yamahas samples are slightly better, but I don't like their actions. The PHA-50 is good, a bit faster and more responsive than the PHA-4.

So. Where is the Nord Grand Plus with GF3 and 3GB internal piano storage? 😃

porco_rosso plastic nipple

Never a good thing 🤭

HZ

@porco_rosso If I remember correctly, @HZPiano tried a Korg D1 and did not like it, but that is another possibility that you should try to check if it is to your liking (you can try it on the Kronos, grandstage, and sv2). More than a few people recommend it and say that is far less sluggish than the rolands. You are running out of options...

porco_rosso The samples are wonderful. These are the first built-in samples in a digital piano I really enjoyed and the first that really sounded like a piano in front of you. And so many of them! I enjoyed the amazing White Grand (Steinway B), the Royal Grand 3D (Yamaha S6 Binaural), the Amber Upright (Grotrian-Steinweg Upright) and the Grand Upright (Yamaha U3) in particular, but all where excellent.

It sounds (pun intended) like you fell in love for this instrument. You are lauding it so much that now I want to buy it! If I do it, my wife would pour hot vinegar on all my instruments, and change the door lock the next time I go out. For the sake of my marital life, please stop of being so explicit 🤣

porco_rosso A price around 2100 € like the Roland RD-2000 or Kawai MP11SE would be more appropriate and I would take it in a heartbeat for that price. Unfortunately the price is 3250 €

Mmmm, what's that compared to the NU1x which you just returned? Peanuts. Moreover, Kawai is supplying the action, so they may have an agreement in which it must be priced well outside of their direct competition, the MP11 and the ES920 (which I think has exactly the same action doesn't it?)

I'm surprised you have not bought it yet. I wonder why. By the way, have you returned the VPC1 already?

porco_rosso If there weren't and VST and simple libraries

Really? You said that this one sounded like a piano in front of you, and I never heard anybody saying that for virtual instruments.

porco_rosso There has to be reason other than they can't do better. Of course they could…

Here is my speculation: digital piano sound (embedded or software) is always 💩 for some reasons only people with a Ph.D. in sound engineering know, but don't tell anybody, because otherwise they'll all be unemployed. However it takes a while for a casual listener to realize, so a new piano sound it's often "good" since one does not immediately realizes the shortcomings. The sound becomes "bad" only after some time in which the listener learns the details of the sound and grow tired of it (note that this does not happen with acoustic piano sound). So my speculation is that the other sounds grew stale on you, whereas these ones are very new and very different.

As I said it's just speculation: anybody can disprove me by telling me that they bought a (software or digital) piano 5 or more years ago, they have been using the same sound since them, and they still think it's the best thing after sliced bread. I've never heard anybody say that, whereas I've heard countless acoustic piano owners saying exactly that.

In any case, some additional unrequested advice, if I were you.

1. Is it possible to get a sound-only module from Nord? If not as a normal product, and since they are a small company, I'd contact them to ask if they'd be interested in making one for you. They may be interested in exploring the opportunity, because the action is not theirs so they might want to "break free" from it (at least that's what I'd do if I were running that company).
2. Go to the store every day for several days in a row. If it's a different store, tell them your story with the other instruments and tell them that you don't want to buy and then return as you have with several other instruments before
3. If you are still in love after doing 2, buy it! It's not perfect, and it's somewhat expensive, but still cheaper than the NU1x and better (?) at least for you (?) -- frankly from your message it's not clear what you don't like.
4. Well, it sounds a bit that you don't love the action, but you still like it. Later on you can buy a Kawai Concert Artist, perhaps an old second hand ones (which in the USA can be found cheaply and still have very nice wooden actions) and use it as a controller.
5. Or just try other Nord keyboards and see how you like those!
6. Or better, just forget about it as I was nudging you earlier 😁

Best of luck!