Joe: we can agree that you are not an empathic person. Honestly, that was kind of known well even before the hijack of this thread... Nothing wrong with that, as long as you and others are ok... What I fail to understand is why you care so much about eddie's mental health while proclaming that caring for others well being is not healthy for you...
porco_rosso On-Topic: Reading gammas post about the action problems with the E-200 in the P515 thread I think now about trying it with Kawai VPC1 once again. I always use VSTs, play >95% of the the time with headphones, the action feels good, it's beautiful and simple, relatively affordable, easier transportable than a furniture dp. And how could be an action that allows performances like this not be good enough for me? 😃
I just ordered one, it should be here by tomorrow. I'm very excited. 🙂 The 3000€ saved compared to the NU1X will go to the "Hybrid Controller / Silent Grand Piano" Fund. 😉
porco_rosso Well, well. Hope that turns out satisfactorily for you!
I do not remember what made you sell your VPC1 the first time around?
Cheers and happy actions,
HZ
PS Will it come from Burgebrach?
The first time I had it it felt a bit heavy for me, and I was not 100% satisfied with the velocity response in the lower velocities and the rather short pivot length... But on the other side in general I loved the overall solid feeling, smoothness and speed of the action. The FP-30 feels like a clacky toy compared to the VPC1. When I sold it (to my prof, who had looked for a VPC1 for a while - what a coincidence!) I had second thoughts, but I got exactly the same price I paid, so I had not lost anything. After owning the NU1X and playing more often on the Bechstein Grand of my teacher again (due to corona the lessons were online often) I realized that a) the FP-30 makes it too easy to play in the ppp - p range for me so that the response of the VPC1 might be better / more realistic after all and b) I also got used to the rather short pivot of the NU1X keys. I will try to play the VPC1 now exclusively for two weeks and give me time to adjust my playing to it. Watching and listening all the amazing virtuosic performances with the VPC1 on youtube, even by professionals, made me realize that the VPC1 is definitely more than good enough for my amateurish playing and the fault must be with me. 🙂 Apart from that I just love it's aesthetics and simplicity.
No, from Schongau. 😉 Burgebrach had them yesterday - but today the VPC1 only available in 5 to 7 weeks again.
Edit: Looks like I got the last one / one of the last ones in Schongau too.
porco_rosso The first time I had it it felt a bit heavy for me, and I was not 100% satisfied with the velocity response in the lower velocities and the rather short pivot length...
😀
porco_rosso Apart from that I just love it's aesthetics and simplicity.
That is really true.
porco_rosso I will try to play the VPC1 now exclusively for two weeks and give me time to adjust my playing to it.
Looking forward to hearing your new impressions!
Hello,
Lucky you, then. And thanks for the explanation.
porco_rosso the FP-30 makes it too easy to play in the ppp - p range
I noticed that too on my PHA-4, at least compared to some acoustic upright pianos. In fact I wrote that somewhere here in the last few days (but where exactly?). Currently, that isn't a problem for me, I even welcome it. May lead to some adjusting/re-learning when I upgrade to a higher-quality action. Or perhaps not that much. We'll see.
Cheers and good luck,
HZ
The VPC1 arrived already an hour ago. I haven't turned it on yet because it's still very cold from the transportation.
But I recognized already two QC issues:
Hello,
porco_rosso two QC issues
This is unacceptable. Did it come from a reputable dealer? Does the box show any indications of mishandling?
I'd say return it for a new unit or a full refund; choosing a different supplier if needed.
I wish you better luck than all of this.
Cheers and… better luck,
HZ
Yes, it did come from a reputable dealer (kirstein). The box doesn't show any indications of mishandling (DHL freight). One of the styrofoams inside was cracked, but I don't think that it had any impact, it was still in the right place. These two issues seem like factory QC issues.
I played it now for an hour.
My first impression: amazing. Really. I don't know why - but it's better than my last unit. The playability from ppp to fff is excellent. I played with the Pianoteq curve (green). I have none of my last issues regarding the velocity response in the lower range. The pianissimo range is very controllable - also for arpeggios and repitions near the fallboard. The "short" pivot is not a problem at all. The keys feel superb. The action feels fluid, smooth and fast. And so solid. Not too heavy at all. It doesn't feel "springy" like the Roland, Casio and Yamaha actions i played the last weeks. I hope thats not the honeymoon - but I hope not, as I was a bit disappointed at first because of the QC Issues. Now I don't want to send this VPC back. 😃 The right pedal works fine, just sounds and feels bad. But I mailed the dealer, I hope we can solve these two issues without returning the unit.
My VPC1 has also some weird weighting / velocity output issues (maybe you are familiar with this thread at the modartt forum: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886)
For example the tenor region is louder than the neighboring areas.
The QC is fucked up at Kawai. Just look in the CA79/99 thread at pw…
Beside from the QC issues: At first the VPC1 felt great, but after extensive playing for five days I realize it just isn't for me. I Like the Roland FP-30 better. When playing the Roland with Pianoteq I feel almost I have a real, breathing instrument under my fingers. My playing just translates very good and the velocity response is so accurate. It's more crisp and you get more feedback from the action. The connection between the action and the sound is great. That was even more case for the NU1X too.
When playing the VPC1 I have the feeling of pushing buttons that look like and are aligned like piano keys, but somehow the connection is not there, there is no proper feedback. It is not a latency issue - it's the same for both keyboards.
Also the keytops (which feel good) are slippery as fuck! I never played a piano where I had such grip problems. The pedal unit is a joke. Even without the defect the other two pedals feel awful.
And: Pianoteq sounds great with the FP-30 and NU1X - but somehow not as good with the VPC1. It's too bright and metallic and adjusting the velocity curve I can't get it feel and sound natural, it just doesn't sound as good as it could. I think the wide range of different opinions in Pianoteq may be caused by the fact that Pianoteq may differ in sound and response from keyboard to keyboard like no other (sample based) VST.
So now I will either:
Btw. my main concern regarding the Lachnit is that it is a small company (without proper service network?) and it is possible that it doesn't exist in a year or two… what to do if there are problems?
porco_rosso I think the wide range of different opinions in Pianoteq may be caused by the fact that Pianoteq may differ in sound and response from keyboard to keyboard
There might be some truth to that. I've also noticed that what I don't like in PT is further exaggerated when changing velocity curves on the controller. I think unlike a sample-based piano where every velocity layer is recorded from a real instrument hence being real, in Pianoteq the dynamic extremities are not very realistic and if the touch response is shifted towards a particular region, it would reveal the synthetic character way too much.
Also try the fp90x. It's newer and cheaper than the rd2000, and it has thw pha50 and audio interface...
Thanks vagfilm! I will.
Has anyone ever tried a Nord Grand? I am listening to different classical pieces with its samples I must say that these are the most beautiful and realistic samples I heard. VSL, Garritan, etc sound great, but in the Nord samples I hear exactly the little touch of warmth and imperfection that makes the treble really shine and sing. I really love Pianoteq for its playability and the huge amount of different timbres, and the sound is better than most built-in dp sound, but they haven't nailed the piano sound yet and the Nord Grand samples sound so great.
I know that the Nord Grand action is not Kawais High-End action, but after my experience with the VPC1 and GF actions that mustn't be a bad thing…
Afaik, the nord grand is basically a es920 with the letoff plasticky thingy removed (and internal velocity curve customized for the nord samples)... And maybe better QC of final assembly, but for the same cost you can buy 2 es920...
The removal of the "let-off-simulation" would be a rather positive thing. 🙂
https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-piano-library
I encourage you to listen to their sample library! I didn't know Nord had such a big variety of pianos. All of them sound glorious, I am very impressed. Especially the warm, resonating, shimmering qualities of pianos is captured very well. The glassiness in the treble and the thickness of the tone. It's a pity they have only a few classical demo pieces. Grands: Steinway B, Yamaha S6, Blüthner Model One, Shigeru Kawai SK-7, Fazioli (212, 228?), Yamaha S4, Bösendorfer Imperial, Steinway D, Yamaha C7. They also have a wonderful selection of Uprights: Yamaha U3, Schimmel, Grotrian-Steinweg, Bösendorfer, Petrof and some swedish pianos.
I also realized that Animenz (a classically trained pianist who makes great covers of anime pieces) used a Nord Grand when his Steinway Grand wasn't available. I always wondered what digital piano this was and why it sounds so good (I thought it was a VST). Without the red finish I didn't recognized it as a Nord.
I am tempted. 😉
I've always been impressed with Nord piano samples, however when I have tested Nord pianos, there's always something wrong, not sure if it's the velocity response, dynamics mapping, the attack or whatever, but the samples just sound unrealistic to me, the whole experience is weird. But I haven't tested a Nord Grand, maybe they spent time to improve upon that.
I confess that I have not listened too much to Nord samples, but my first impression is that they have a lot of well applied reverb that masks the note tails and blends everything together. With long lasting notes at high velocities, for me it has the same problems of overwhelming soundscaping of Pianoteq: harmonics lasting artificially long (in a wood soundboard, new excitations cancel old frequencies, and only the room reverberation lasts longer). But the classical pianist Josh Wright swears on his Nord Piano (old model, maybe Nord Piano 3, with Fatar keys), so - again - I am probably biased and wrong...
porco_rosso 50 (why is the Kiyola KF-10 so expensive?)
It's real wood and some veneer, a modern furniture design. It looks nice in the photos, to me, minimalist 'scandinavian' design that might suit some decors. In the flesh however I found it less compelling, rather lightweight and flimsy looking in appearance.
CyberGene Agreed. I'm not sure what it is, but it reminds me of a situation where everything is right on paper, but the integration is off. The samples themselves sound great in a recording but when playing, it feels/sounds a bit unnatural? I haven't tried a Nord Grand though.
Hello,
@porco_rosso, Your upgrade adventure has been going on like this, even running in circles, for quite some time now.
Unsolicited advice: I strongly recommend putting all of this to rest (having your FP30 to play on) for at least six to twelve months. Totally at rest -- and that includes even thinking about piano upgrades.
After that, you stand a chance of naturally knowing what to do next, if anything at all.
Cheers and a happy peace of mind,
HZ