Are Nords worth it?

David B

I'm sure this question has been asked a lot, but I just found out how expensive Nords are. I was looking specifically at their new Piano 6 and the Grand 2. That's $3800 and $4500. Why so much? what are you getting? No audio interface. Lower end Fatar action on the piano 6 and a custom Kawai RHIII on the Grand 2. The RHIII on the Grand 2 isn't even a graded hammer action. The key weight is the same across all 88. How can you have Grand in the name and not even have a graded hammer action which is on every acoustic piano built?

The demos of the acoustic pianos on their website and the demos on YouTube showcasing the acoustic pianos and strings sound really nice to my ears coming through my Genelecs. However, I don't know if I can justify the expense.

Also, the red color is really an assault both visually and emotionally. I've actually been looking at options (vinyl wrap) if I were to ever purchase one of these. The red color would actually keep me away from the piano. ❌ I know the color is just a preference and many people enjoy the red color, but what about the other issues I raised. Why are people willing to pay higher prices for Nords in a competitive market with many options?

God Bless,
David

CyberGene

Nords were the first to introduce very intuitive and easy to use stage keyboards with uploadable sounds, targeted at gigging musicians. At a time when Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Kurzweil were comfortably sitting on their asses just adding more bloat to their impenetrable and overcomplicated workstations that required a PhD to just start grasping the surface of the underlying architecture, Nord came and disrupted the status quo and solved the issue for so many live musicians. And they are also expensive, so it’s a status symbol for professional musicians. Yamaha didn’t just sit and watch, so they eventually followed suit with the similar CP/YC/CK series, however the damage was done.

But Nords are not worth it IMO, especially for piano connoisseurs such as us. They never feel good to me for demanding solo piano. Something in the touch response, sound programming and the overall playability is lacking and I don’t blame the guys since they target their keyboards for live stage and not for home/studio.

David B

CyberGene Thanks for the history lesson. That's helpful to know.

A few more questions please.

CyberGene Yamaha didn’t just sit and watch, so they eventually followed suit with the similar CP/YC/CK series, however the damage was done.

What might be comparable to Nord in terms of string and piano sound? I'm not impressed with the Numa string/piano sounds.

CyberGene But Nords are not worth it IMO, especially for piano connoisseurs such as us. They never feel good to me for demanding solo piano. Something in the touch response, sound programming and the overall playability is lacking and I don’t blame the guys since they target their keyboards for live stage and not for home/studio.

This might sound crazy and it's a total GAS induced psychosis 😀, but I was considering a Nord Piano 6 just for the strings/piano patches to augment my Numa for VST use.

However, I would consider selling the Numa if the Nord Grand 2 had a decent action and handled VSTs correctly.

God Bless,
David

Khuja Wangtishvili

CyberGene But Nords are not worth it IMO, especially for piano connoisseurs such as us. They never feel good to me for demanding solo piano. Something in the touch response, sound programming and the overall playability is lacking and I don’t blame the guys since they target their keyboards for live stage and not for home/studio.

While I fully agree that Nords are not worth for home usage, they are the best pianos for stage use. They have not been designed for a home pianists and advertisted as such.

HOWEVER
If you would speak with any concert pianist, who plays on different kind of electronic pianos on stage, you will hear that they are fantastic, extremely use to use during show, user friendly and action is ok too. Nord fans are not coming from GAS, but simply from the fact that they spend a lot of time designing it for a particular purpose - to be the best, fast, reliable, easy to use switch, program, connect and so on keyboard on a live stage in various environment.

David B

Khuja Wangtishvili While I fully agree that Nords are not worth for home usage, they are the best pianos for stage use. They have not been designed for a home pianists and advertisted as such.

What about the Grand 2. That seems to be designed for studio, home, and stage use. Did they miss the mark with it for home use?

johanibraaten

David B What about the Grand 2. That seems to be designed for studio, home, and stage use. Did they miss the mark with it for home use?

What I don't understand about the Nord Grand is why they made it so bulky yet still with no built in speakers. I like the Nord Grand and with its design it should be possible to put some great speakers in it and it would be a very good piano for home use with a design that stands out. But instead they offer a pair of very average Audio Pro monitors in the same color which isn't the most appealing solution at least for me. But as @Khuja Wangtishvili mention, stage use is Nords main target.

David B The key weight is the same across all 88. How can you have Grand in the name and not even have a graded hammer action which is on every acoustic piano built?

Actually, the static downright isn't graded on all acoustic pianos. Steinway for example has the same key weight across the range up to model B. The two largest models, C & D, have graded key weight. However the dynamic weight will be graded due to the different mass of the hammers and keys.

CyberGene

David B What might be comparable to Nord in terms of string and piano sound? I'm not impressed with the Numa string/piano sounds.

I'm not very familiar with string sounds in keyboards but I'm sure the best strings will always be software ones. BTW, I've heard some killer string quartet sounds (similar to the ones in the Nord demo you linked) in Logic Pro, if you still have it, or you only demoed it in the trial period?

David B This might sound crazy and it's a total GAS induced psychosis 😀, but I was considering a Nord Piano 6 just for the strings/piano patches to augment my Numa for VST use.

I've had my fair share of Nord GAS but wisdom always prevails. Just too expensive for home use 🙂

David B However, I would consider selling the Numa if the Nord Grand 2 had a decent action and handled VSTs correctly.

Nord Grand uses the same Kawai plastic action as on the ES-520 if I remember correctly. You won't gain anything with it since AFAIK Nords are not the best in terms of MIDI master functionality.

P.S. Nords are notorious for not offering a lot of advanced functionality for custom setups and MIDI control. They are the Apple of the music instrument: great for what they are alone for gigging musicians, maybe the best ones which is why you seem them so much in concerts. But they are not meant for custom studio and MIDI control.

HZPiano

Hello,

Nord's "best" action as far as I know is the RHIII as adopted from Kawai.

So, if you want that action (which I reckon you don't) to play VSTis, the cheaper route would be Kawai MP7SE or ES920.

I touched the Nord Grand and MP7SE side by side and -- unsurprisingly -- they feel largely the same.

I heard (in a piano store) someone play the Nord through the red Nord nearfield speakers once, and remember positively liking that sample. However, it will never approach VI Labs level…

What happened to cause your "ideal" Numa to fall from grace?

Cheers and happy un-G.A.S.-ing 😉,

@David B

EssBrace

If you just want Nord sounds get an Electro. You can load whatever you want into it from the Nord libraries. You save space and money. Control it via MIDI from whatever weighted keys you use.

The Nord Piano has a version of the TP40 Fatar action. The TP400W action is basically part of the TP40 family - the architecture is the same but with small modifications the TP400W manages to feel nicer, although it's not night and day.

The Nord Grand's Kawai action is not for me. Not at all. Very noisy. Springy feeling with a sense of too much push back. As dramatic as it sounds I came to truly HATE mine.

I have two criticisms of Nord piano sounds - they are probably related to some extent but I find the note attacks can be fatiguing after a while - something just jars with me. Secondly I don't think Nord really does true pianissimo. The quietest samples are just a tad too bold on many of the Nord piano sounds. But then if you're playing in an amplified band that would simply not matter.

As CG says they are really made for a specific purpose, and that is to do what gigging musicians need, to be rugged and, let's face it, to give kudos to the player because Nord has become the go-to choice of many pros.

And David, just because they're red doesn't mean you'll go to hell if you play one. But you might just sprout a couple of vestigial horns though while playing.

David B

Wow, you guys are talking me off the edge and saving me from my GAS induced psychosis. Kudos. My wife has been trying to do that for years. 😀

However, I'm not there yet. A few more questions/observations.

johanibraaten However the dynamic weight will be graded due to the different mass of the hammers and keys.

Same effect, right? Bass notes feel heavier. It's like that in "all" acoustic pianos. Why would Nord not simulate that in their "Grand" branded keyboard. It just seems like an odd choice since the the native Kawai RHIII is a graded hammer action. Why do away with the graded part?

CyberGene BTW, I've heard some killer string quartet sounds (similar to the ones in the Nord demo you linked) in Logic Pro, if you still have it, or you only demoed it in the trial period?

Thanks. I own Logic Pro and I'll explore that latter today. I didn't think to try any of the Logic Pro sounds.

CyberGene Nord Grand uses the same Kawai plastic action as on the ES-520 if I remember correctly. You won't gain anything with it since AFAIK Nords are not the best in terms of MIDI master functionality.

The ES520 is listed as a Responsive Hammer Compact II action (RHCII). The Nord Grand had a modified RHIII action. The modifications are that they removed the escapement, graded hammer, and I'm not sure about the counterweights. In the end it's kind of a weird and unique action.

EssBrace The Nord Grand's Kawai action is not for me. Not at all. Very noisy. Springy feeling with a sense of too much push back. As dramatic as it sounds I came to truly HATE mine.

You had the original Nord Grand? I know that in the Nord Grand 2 a major update was making the action quieter and more rigid or something.

EssBrace If you just want Nord sounds get an Electro. You can load whatever you want into it from the Nord libraries. You save space and money. Control it via MIDI from whatever weighted keys you use.

Now that's an interesting thought. Nord Electro is still pretty expensive though. Even the cheapest one is $2700 and it doesn't come with very much memory. How is the connection made between the Numa and Nord? Would I be able to control up to 4 Nord sounds on my Numa?

HZPiano What happened to cause your "ideal" Numa to fall from grace?

I never really cared for the sounds on the Numa. I've been wanting something with good strings, pad, and acoustic piano sounds in one easy package.

EssBrace And David, just because they're red doesn't mean you'll go to hell if you play one. But you might just sprout a couple of vestigial horns though while playing.

I guess I'm just used to piano/keyboards being black. Black is elegant while the red is disturbing. 😀

This is what I would end up doing if I got the Nord Grand 2.

https://youtube.com/shorts/dTbhAT3t5LI?si=elW5LhHh4gTV6JQT

God Bless,
David

HeartKeys

David B Why so much? what are you getting?

I sometimes see the Nord as a statement piece. The look, the feel, etc. I imagine they spend a ton on the marketing and design.

And since some folks will buy them at stated price, it’ll be at a high price point.

Once upon a time I got a Nord. It was a Nord 2 I think. I just recall it stood out in its color, but looking back I didn’t think the price justified what I needed.

johanibraaten

David B Same effect, right? Bass notes feel heavier. It's like that in "all" acoustic pianos.

Well, it will feel that way when you play fast notes but not necessarily in slow playing. I don't know why Nord removed the graded part but some would say that a graded keyboard on a digital instrument is somewhat a gimmick (just like some would argue about the escapement simulation). I think that if the action parts like hammers and keys weight the same from the start and the "grading" is made with counterweights, then you either would remove mass from the lover keys or add weight to the higher keys to achieve the grading. In that case you would get a graded keyboard when measuring the static down weight but a reversed effect the faster you play. I guess that's why Steinways largest pianos are graded because the increased mass you'd have to add to compensate for the large hammers in a concert grand would add too much inertia. Anyway, that's just my theory. I'm not too familiar with Kawais RH action and I'm not an expert in physics.

RIP

David B How can you have Grand in the name and not even have a graded hammer action which is on every acoustic piano built?

Not true. There are some Yamaha acoustic pianos which are not graded. It's a design choice. If you leave the hammers not counterbalanced, yes the bass will be more heavy than the treble, And tremendously so! Hence, counterweights (made of lead, yes) are installed in each and every key. It's a design decision how many to install on each key and where. The most typical choice is to leave the bass a bit heavier than the treble, but it does not have to be that way: as all design choices there are pros and cons which you can find described in great details in the Igrec piano technician book, maybe even in the few sections which he gives away for free on his website.

David B Why so much? what are you getting? No audio interface. Lower end Fatar action on the piano 6 and a custom Kawai RHIII on the Grand 2

As others have said, they are stage pianos for the performing artists. In fact, as you have correctly noted, they have subpar hardware. Their value is completely on the software side (like it was with Apple at the time of Intel: you could buy a much better PC with the exact same hardware for much less -- but it ran a different software -- of course this is not true anymore for Apple and their custom hardware now let PCs bite the dust).

Unless you have changed your mustical objectives and you now would like to perform in public, perhaps even during your Sunday services (I've seen a few priests doing that), then the Nord are absolutely a waste of time and money for you, IMHO.

David B

RIP Not true. There are some Yamaha acoustic pianos which are not graded. It's a design choice. If you leave the hammers not counterbalanced, yes the bass will be more heavy than the treble, And tremendously so! Hence, counterweights (made of lead, yes) are installed in each and every key. It's a design decision how many to install on each key and where. The most typical choice is to leave the bass a bit heavier than the treble, but it does not have to be that way: as all design choices there are pros and cons which you can find described in great details in the Igrec piano technician book, maybe even in the few sections which he gives away for free on his websitepianosinsideout.comhttp://www.pianosinsideout.com/Excerpts.htmlNo preview could be generated for this link.

Thank you for the education. 👍

RIP Unless you have changed your mustical objectives and you now would like to perform in public, perhaps even during your Sunday services (I've seen a few priests doing that), then the Nord are absolutely a waste of time and money for you, IMHO.

I don't have an interest in performing live, but I want to play with more strings/pads and onboard acoustics. I just want to turn the piano on have that ready to go. Where else can I find good strings/pads and acoustics in one easy package?

God Bless,
David

RIP

David B Thank you for the education.

You are most welcome!!

David B Where else can I find good strings/pads and acoustics in one easy package?

I've just learned about tempest which has historical pianos for purchase and free strings/brass/woodwind with an innovative approach. Seems compelling enough that I've put on my "to test" list, but it's not clear to me if it works in Reaper alone without Kontakt (but it does work with the free version of Kontakt, unlike many other free instruments which require the paid version). Maybe you'll want to give it a try and if so do let us know what you think!

Alternatively, soundfonts4you has always the best free pianos on the internet (which currently are our own @dore_m 's ones -- before his pianos were released it was the Chateaux grand). It also has Organs, Strings, Flutes, Sax, Trumpet, orchestral stuff and Guitars. I don't play much with them, so maybe my opinion is not super-informed, but they sound great to me and the price is right.

Of course there are plenty of paid ones too, from the "usual suspects" which we often discuss for piano samples, but I have not tried any of them since I don't use those sounds enough to justify the purchase.

vagfilm

David B Please, fight the GAS, particularly in a case of absurd GAS. You WILL regret it because the Nord samples are watered-dows piano sounds (with a LOT of baked-in reverb), and the string samples are watered-down samples obtained from Spitfire. Thus, there is a 100% chance that you can customize a custom piano+strings combo in your computer that sounds to your ears even better than the Nord combo. Afterall, you are ALWAYS running a computer VST and never using the onboard samples, and never settled for less. So it is easy for you to make a 2 track mainstage track that is lauched at startup.

If you want an escape valve to your GAS (if GAS is not redirected, it will blow up in the most expensive acquisition… don't fight GAS: distract it, that is my motto) do it in buying strings VSTs. There are dozens and dozens of possibilities, and not all of them allow demos, but for the most comprehensive selection I would suggest you take a look at the OrchestralTools catalogue. Using their Sine player, you can then buy individual patches. There are ensemble patches in their ARK orchestras that may be what you are looking for, and instead of paying 500 for the entire thing, you can buy just the strings for 30 or 50…

David B

vagfilm Please, fight the GAS, particularly in a case of absurd GAS. You WILL regret it because the Nord samples are watered-dows piano sounds (with a LOT of baked-in reverb), and the string samples are watered-down samples obtained from Spitfire. Thus, there is a 100% chance that you can customize a custom piano+strings combo in your computer that sounds to your ears even better than the Nord combo. Afterall, you are ALWAYS running a computer VST and never using the onboard samples, and never settled for less. So it is easy for you to make a 2 track mainstage track that is lauched at startup.

This is good advice. I'm trying to contact Spitfire Audio to learn more about their products and what I heard in the Nord, but no replay as of yet through their only contact channel.

vagfilm I would suggest you take a look at the OrchestralTools catalogue.

I'll check it out. Thanks.

God bless,
David

vagfilm

I don't think that Spitfire sells individual patches, but I may be mistaken. Most of their products are still Kontakt based. The cinematic offerings of Spitfire and OrchestralTools are copycat of each other, and if you find one ensemble that you like, the other company has a similar version. Ark for OT, Albion for Spitfire, for example. Look for cinematic chamber patches…

vagfilm

According to a post in VI-control, the new Nord sample is derived from the AbbeyRoad 2 Iconic Strings library. 149 bucks vs several thousands, and you get many more sounds (solos, ensembles, stacattos, etc…). No brainer in my opinion. And you can control expression thru the numa.

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/abbey-road-two-iconic-strings

Asunder

David B I don't have an interest in performing live, but I want to play with more strings/pads and onboard acoustics. I just want to turn the piano on have that ready to go. Where else can I find good strings/pads and acoustics in one easy package?

For just turning the piano on and being ready to go, you could set up a dedicated always on (sleeping) computer, with your regular patches loaded in your host, which should be close enough to just switching on and much less expensive. Lots of options for that, including mini computers an tablets, touch interface options, and host software intended for live use. And a computer provides many more high-quality options for sounds.

The biggest benefit of a stage piano is a fast to use hardware interface for the variety of onboard live sounds, i.e., piano, epiano, organ, synth, with most important parameters up front for making changes on the fly during performance.