A Negative Review of VPC1

dore_m Now this is making me curious. Are there digital actions that do well with repetations like what's found in Rhapsody in Blue, for example?

I have an MP10 that feels like the VPC1 but it only has a double sensor. I'm surprised that the repetition isn't good on the VPC1 as it has a triple-sensor action. I don't like the keys on the VPC1. The short pivot makes some pieces difficult to play in a way they are not on a grand.

I have no problem with fast repeated notes on my Roland FP-90. It's not as easy as on my acoustic, but I don't have any problem practising on my digital and moving to the grand.

David Lai Now this is making me curious. Are there digital actions that do well with repetations like what's found in Rhapsody in Blue, for example?

Actually, I don't know. I don't have much experience with digital actions other than my VPC1. But I suppose those repetitions in Rhapsody are harder to play because they are on the black keys, which have a shorter pivot (?)

dore_m the black keys, which have a shorter pivot (?)

Hello,

One of the nice aspects of the VPC1's RM3II action is that the white and black key pivot points are staggered, just as in "real" piano actions.

This compensates (to a certain extent) for the shorter black key length in a likewise way as it is compensated for (to a certain extent) in regular acoustic actions.

Cheers!

HZ

That’s a pretty bad feedback for a keyboard that’s targeted at serious pianists. Kawai desperately need to update it.

Johnstaf I have an MP10 that feels like the VPC1 but it only has a double sensor. I'm surprised that the repetition isn't good on the VPC1 as it has a triple-sensor action. I don't like the keys on the VPC1. The short pivot makes some pieces difficult to play in a way they are not on a grand.

Earnest Pete, here! 🤔

The action in the MP10 was one of my favorites; to the point that I swore to never again use a “folded” action, and, whilst it’s purported to be the same action used in the VPC-1 (plus one more sensor), and the overall implication is that the RM3-II is “better,” I preferred the MP10/RM3; which has brought me to the conclusion that the end result isn’t always a direct result of the sum of its parts, but rather how these “parts” work together (and that includes the interfacing between sensors and motherboard, and, in the case of a digital with on-board sounds, the sound engine….

I no longer feel that a long wooden stick balanced on a pivot is inherently better than a well-designed “folded” action (like the NWX, for example 😊), and yes, Mac is right, “the proof is in the pudding” (in other words, these instruments have to be played; because sometimes the specs don’t tell the full story)….

CyberGene Kawai desperately need to update it.

In a thread on PW recently, I believe Kawai James made it clear that the VPC 1 would be updated eventually. Someone was suggesting that the MP lineup was done or going to be discontinued and KJ put the kibosh on that quite clearly. I asked about the VPC1 and he put it in the same category as the MP series indicating the Kawai was not done with it either.

3 things need to be updated on the VPC1.

1. New action. Get rid of the dreaded slip tape. I can't see myself buying a Kawai that has slip tape on the action. GF3 will do.

2. Get rid of the Fatar pedal because it sucks. The same one came with my Numa and I use Roland pedals. The MP optical pedal will work.

3. Midi 2.0 with the ability for single note sensitivity editing.

They'd possibly have a winner with the above specs for the next twelve years or more. The VPC1 was introduced in 2013.

God Bless,
David

David B

Yes, the pedal! I forgot about that in my response to your earlier "update specs" post. Probably, I'm so used to having my own pedals and interface that… I just forgot about the dreaded Fatar pedal set.

As for MIDI 2.0: Nah, indifferent.

As for per-note MIDI settings/edit: Yes, that would be good.

Well, NAMM is fast approaching, so we'll see what happens. As you are "just around the corner", relatively speaking, take a discrete vehicle and go spy on Kawai for us. As Pete will be doing so for Yamaha, the two of you could have a coffee, vegetable shake, or even lunch together.

And, naturally, report back to us on all aspects and findings, including those concerning your spy-collegue.

Cheers,

HZ

I’m not really sure a wooden stick action offers anything more than a folded plastic action. They rather up their game and think of a controller with an actual grand piano action but that would be expensive. Or a new type of mechanism with actual escapement. Other than that it won’t offer anything interesting, any stage piano is basically the same in terms of mechanism and MIDI implementation.

CyberGene Or a new type of mechanism with actual escapement.

If someone would manage to do that without the bulk of a hybrid it would be a big leap forward for DP:s.

If they do come out with a VPC 2 with an improved action, I'll have to seriously consider it, as it's the most space-saving setup for me.

Pete14 I no longer feel that a long wooden stick balanced on a pivot is inherently better than a well-designed “folded” action (like the NWX, for example 😊), and yes, Mac is right, “the proof is in the pudding” (in other words, these instruments have to be played; because sometimes the specs don’t tell the full story)….

Agree 100%. After all the online discussion about key length, pivot point, full stick vs. folded, etc. I was expecting this to be "the" major differentiator amongst various actions, but once I started going out and demoing them myself, I found that it was almost a non-factor. Plenty of folded actions felt just as good (if not better) than many of the full key stick and hybrid actions, and a few additional centimeters in pivot length made far less of an impact than online chatter or industry PR had led me to expect.

In fact, several of the full hybrid models felt among the least appealing to me - heavy and sluggish and not particularly enjoyable to play. Closer to a not very well-maintained upright than a properly conditioned grand.

jdg78 That's true. But, I would have enjoyed a few extra CM on the black keys so I can play the repetitions with more space, as 2 hands alternate between the black key notes.

These actions are so simple. There's no reason why a wooden stick action more piano-like than folded. It's a matter of really simple physics. They're quite far removed from a real grand action.

Pivot length is one thing that can't be engineered away. If you don't like how that aspect of an action feels, it will be the same on all actions with the same pivot length. Physics doesn't care.

jdg78 a few additional centimeters in pivot length made far less of an impact than online chatter or industry PR had led me to expect.

But a few centimeters less does have a big impact unfortunately, see PX-S and most synth actions 😉

Johnstaf Pivot length is one thing that can't be engineered away.

I've seen a couple of patents showing that it could, no idea if they'd come with adverse side-effects, haven't made it to market. The CME Xkey did, infinite pivot, but the tech is like laptop spacebars rather than piano keys 🙂

_sem_ I've seen a couple of patents showing that it could, no idea if they'd come with adverse side-effects, haven't made it to market. The CME Xkey did, infinite pivot, but the tech is like laptop spacebars rather than piano keys 🙂

I mean a simple lever like a piano key. You can use a fundamentally different design that gets rid of the lever, and then simulates a large one. The CME XKey is a good example. If the key is a simple lever, no other part of the design attributes can compensate for it. I have some 1970s synths with simple spring actions but long levers, and this aspect of the actions feels exactly the same as it does with an acoustic grand. The actions couldn't be more different, apart from the keys being simple levers.

jdg78 and a few additional centimeters in pivot length made far less of an impact than online chatter or industry PR had led me to expect.

Going from the VPC1 action type to the Roland PHA50 was huge for me. It doesn't bother everyone the same way.

Johnstaf I mean a simple lever like a piano key. You can use a fundamentally different design that gets rid of the lever, and then simulates a large one. The CME XKey is a good example. If the key is a simple lever, no other part of the design attributes can compensate for it. I have some 1970s synths with simple spring actions but long levers, and this aspect of the actions feels exactly the same as it does with an acoustic grand. The actions couldn't be more different, apart from the keys being simple levers.

The Xkey is odd-ball, isn't really a piano key action. Those patents are for piano actions that depart from keys being simple levers, the pivot point is not a physical axis, only projected.

Here is me testing repetition first of the NU1 with Pianoteq, then the NU1 with its own internal sound and finally with my M&H grand. Only white keys tests, played sloppily with one hand or two hands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glyu1N7IwPw

RIP Interesting, the hybrid was more responsive than the acoustic.