Pianos (keys) are badly designed!

PASHKULI So, seems you have played it on my design and could not find "your way" talking from first hand experience. Sigh.
To me it is obstructing having to wriggle your fingers between the 'black' keys. Fingers should have access. If you can't play without "support" maybe you should… practice more till you can't get it wrong.

Okay, so in the end we are understanding each other, yeah!!!

I played in the way you described and became attracted by Janko and your design which I found on some other forums back in the day. So I understand what you are talking about because that was myself, until 3 years ago and for several decades before. I never reached any fluent way to play the piano that way, and I can now confidently say that it's true for the vast majority of players who approach the piano that way.

Why? A variety of factors, but one particular that is relevant in this conversation! What you call "obstructing" it is the very heart and soul of fluent piano playing, which I started to do when I met my current teacher. Starting at that time, I learned to love the piano layout exactly in the way it is (besides being slightly too wide) and what it enables: knowing perfectly where my hands are exactly at all times. In fact, I can fluently switch between regular acoustic piano keys and Korg microKEY synth without any problem: I always know what I am doing, without need to practice anything (in fact I improvise at all the time, don't play pre-decided pieces).

Practicing until you can't get it wrong is the worse one can do, relying 100% of "muscle memory" and its mindless approach which leads nowhere: pieces are forgotten easily; mistakes creeps in at all time; you can't improvise; the minimal distraction or difference forces you to stop; trimming your fingernails makes you forget the piece you knew till few minutes before (!!!!); playing a piano slightly heavier or lighter than the one you practiced on it's incredibly hard; and more problems. Ask me how I know: I did it for decades.

Hence, no thank you, you are not solving "the obstructing" that pianists have, you are removing what they need to keep the love of their instrument strong!

To be even more clear, you wrote:

PASHKULI having to wriggle your fingers between the 'black' keys. Fingers should have access.

Unless you have a hand disability, these movements are totally natural and innate in the normal dexterity of the hand.

Now that I think harder about it, your idea could be fantastic in simplifying piano playing for people with disabilities who have mechanical issue in their fingers, or control disease which limits what movements their fingers can make. So I strongly suggest that you try to reach to that demographic, and not the one of even marginally accomplished pianists like the ones who can find here.

PASHKULI Which reminds me… I can try and flip the data cable form the keys' velocity sensor to the PCB inside one of the prototypes, but am mostly shure the go only one way in into the pins. I

You can do that in software with zero effort. For example you may use Python and mido -- that would take you probably 30 minutes including the most difficult part which is making sure you install it correctly (see this bug to save you some grief)

RIP
Ok, you have chosen the well paved path, with lots of teachers who have walked it. You feel safe in the comfort zone with many others like yourself. I am a different breed. I like observing the status quo and after shaking my head a change appears. Disruptive maybe, unconventional… no one saw a problem. But when even a simple thing got changed and saved about a few grands a month to the company I worked at, they still kept telling me "but we had it as a routinde for the past 17 years".
Trust me when I say to you – the world is mostly full of problems, not solutions. The state of the art changes, it is a progress. I wish for example, I were at least decent in computer programming (no, not as a career) rather to design my own pianoTAB software. No, not a score editor such as Sibelius, MuseScore, Overture, Dorico etc. not even MIDI roll ala Synthesia or PianoVFX. It is another endeavour.

ENOUGH!

I don’t think he’s a troll. I mean, he’s not trolling us in the actual sense of it, intentionally posting BS to provoke and then laugh at us. I just believe his “idiosyncrasies” (to put it mildly, since I’m not an expert to put it properly) manifest themselves into ideas that are so stubbornly silly by finding “problems” where there aren’t, and presented in a specific, overblown way, while at the same time he’s not even a pianist, that the net effect of it is basically the same as trolling. With that in mind, I’d stick to not feeding that behavior.

Let me troll for a bit. You can call me Galileo, call me Giordano (Bruno, for the uneducated).
Or a troll – when there are no arguments, insult come into the picture (I think 'troll' is an insult in this context\thread and the connotation of this word is to belittle the efforts and work of someone).

Oh, man… and we have not even tackled the Music notation (yes, I know it is a different topic but… it has been well related to the piano… ok no pianos were present back then but there were portativ and such 'pipe-organ' type of instruments with keys\levers)!
I have seen it (such reactions) before. No need to worry. It is not my fault that you have spent hours, days, years studying, learning, practicing something awful and half-baked, just because everyone around has done it the same way. I have not.

Some pepole just can not face the truth. Bacause they can not handle it.
I think that is normal. History of Human gevelopment has experienced it since time immemorial.

I would like to make it perfectly clear that no one forces you (to all) reading this thread.
I register in such forum as a placeholder, presentation, exposure online. For the future… (I think intrenet will be here for the next 100 maybe even 200 years).

PASHKULI Some pepole just can not face the truth. Bacause they can not handle it.

The irony! 🤣

To put things in perspective, and since I already mentioned it before and I believe @PASHKULI won't consider this a violation of his privacy but rather a desired publicity, he's also written a manifesto about proposed changes in Bulgarian grammar and orthography (that he uses in private messages with me and the only effect is that it makes it a bit hard for me to read his posts). Which nobody has adopted for the last 10+ years since he first proposed it, as far as I'm aware. Then there was a proposal of changing the music note names. There were other similar ideas which I have forgotten. The music notation has just been mentioned above. And this keyboard layout. So, there's a pattern already.

You've been banned repeatedly on many forums and I guess it might make you believe that you're an enlightener of sorts, you even alluded to you being compared to Galileo and Giordano Bruno. But you're not. Your ideas have not been adopted by anybody else. Forgive me for being harsh but I believe it rather shows a particular mental condition, probably some kind of OCD along with mania for showing the world how you're so great to discover the "issues" with the establishment. Since your ideas are useless and don't contribute to anything and people don't adopt them or find them useful, the only possible way for you to reaffirm how "great" you and your ideas are, is to make it look like you are persecuted, thinking of yourself as a misunderstood genius, even a martyr, since you started your participation here with "ban me". Yeah, you want to be banned, that's what will make you feel good 🙂

I understand that this is not the best aproach to "promote" or "sell" my ideas, products.
The thing is – I am not a salesman, trader, businessman. I am a designer.
I also laugh at some "desiger" clothes, "designer" cars, "designer" interior, "designer" food (gourmet) and so on.
Yet, who am I to offer anything even remotly similar to theirs?!

In a similar way I have chosen Music.

I can start asking you questions but then you will get angry that I would be leading you into a dead end answers (which you could do yourselves). And then you will take it personally, instead of looking at the objective reasoning.
I understand you are pianists (hobby, maybe some of you have participated\won some piano music competitions in school, uni, etc.). Most of you probably read music score, etc. passed exams on it, got a degree for music related subjects and so on. Well, I have not.

I studieth Music purely scientifically and you could even say – forensically. I know that everything is here because some one has made it as such. I spent my time in Music doing that instead of "studiyng for music exams", preparing for a piano\guitar\tuba competition. Why is it (insert Music related object) this way? Who said so?

Let's start:

Who said that the note A should be there on that key on the Piano? Why, for example, A is not where C is?
Why we then "separate" ranges from C to C (you can even see it in digital realm, MIDI rolls). Why not A? After all A is the first letter in many (if not all) european alphabets (efev habrew, but it has a bit different letter).

Related: why is it the sequence of the Latin\English alphabet assigned to those exact notes? Why not Greek, Cyrillic, Hebrew?

I really would love to read your logical thoughts. (please, be aware that all info is on the Internet, so be… "creative" do not just tell me something I have read already… and dismissed)

It's actually quite simple. Good design takes into account the usefulness and practicality of the design. You can't judge that because you don't play the piano. And unfortunately, you also don't take into account the well-intentioned advice of the piano players who are your target group - the design should be useful and practical for them. If it's not and you don't listen to them, it's not a good design.

Sorry ... but despite CG's clarification I still think he's a troll. The lack of self-awareness proves the point.

So perhaps the troll category needs a set of subcategories to distinguish among them?
In that case may I suggest that we have here a CONTRARIAN TROLL.

MacMacMac I disagree with the troll concept here. I think trolling is impossible without self-awareness.

Clueless? Yes! Inconsiderate? It would seem so. But trolling? No, I would side with CG on this particular point.

I think we may in the not-too-distant future see chatbots deliver fanatic walls of text about idiosyncratic details, very much like displayed here in this thread. But for now we get the authentic human kind.

porco_rosso
How about – no. I have observed (studied) my friend as she prepared for competitions to the point she thought I was actually in love with her. That was not the case, of course, but since she was the only one at school who had a proper grand piano at home… that is what I did – observing while she practiced. I never had any desire to play such a clumsy instrument, which by design is a total lazy job.

I am patient with your answers… if you'd like to share such thoughts of cours. Not going to blame you if nothing comes to mind. Please, do not forget the earliest questions regarding the direction of notes on a piano and should we call it 'right-handed' or 'left-handed'. I shared with you my reasoning and why I think curront pianos are more suitable to left-handed players, yet at the same time extorting their left-handedness. Current accordions (with such layout) are exactly suitable to left-handed players. For a right-handed they (the manuals) should be swaped but the direction of notes should stay. My logic is based on the handedness of guitarist.

There are gazillion questions really. As a self-taught "musician" by ear and TABs (guitar) I never bought what was written in those Music (theory) manuals or instructions. In my head since I was about 14 there were immediato questions such as: But why? Who said so? What is the origin of those designations? And so on…

At some point around the time I was in my early 20s I had to say: "Stop! Enough!" and make my own "version" or re-vision.

• just for the record, I am not a 'troll' who is here to gag or waste our mutual time
• I love Music as an art and from scientific point of view and've been listening to Music (by necessity) since I was 7~8 as my grandad was a clarinet and drum player and one evening he took me with him to the local bar or pub with live music and I got fascinated by the drum kit with all those boomy sounds and shiny cymbals
• I am in fact an 'amateur' (admirer) of everytihng Music related, played in school\uni rock bands but never for money or for contests\competitions and my own music is equally odd as my interest in Music.

So, back to the main topic of this thread…

There have been some design iterations with regards to hand (the whole hand that is) movement and ergonomics. Historically those were documented around 180 years ago – the so called horizantal arc-shaped keyboards. There are modern vertical arc-shaped keyboards which are an abomination IMnsHO.

A designer company in USA built such arc-circular piano for some Lady GAGA show or something and they presented it on NAMM in Los Angelis about 12 years ago.

• these are the oldest ones (please, notice that they are two types):

According to the book "The modern Piano" by L. Nalder from 1927 there are arc-pianos fith radial keys and one with key that are 'straight' but attached to a horizontal curve. I hope the difference is visible.

I prefer the radial ones. Ergonomically it makes a lot of sence, especially if the piano has more than 70 keys and especially intended for pianos with 88+ keys.

• here is the one the guys at ArcPiano (USA) designed for Lady Gaga (the problems are self evident)

They made it with an arc-shaped keybed, radial but messed up the widths big time (as with a typical piano)

Here is a similar one (but acoustic grand with all parallel strings, hence – exesivelly long body) built by Chris Maene (Netherlands); it alse has messed up widths despite the arc is more gentle

Here is my solution. Only as a concept. I could not build a prototype because the price was extremely high to order such bespoke elements and parts.

I am really fascinated by the idea of building it one day. But it will be with two manuals (each with 57 keys, where ~17 will be duplicates in the middle range, can be adjusted how many will be duplicates).
Notice those are "flat" keys. Of course I can design them as curved keys and from a design engineering point of view it is quite a intricate and very challenging task!

Oh, here are the abominations (I can not even…):

@PASHKULI

Why don't you simply call Chris Maene and tell him that his piano designs are lazy and simply wrong?

PASHKULI Nothing is difficult to play. Show something then I can try and replicate it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE_d3T4D3aI

Mindbullets

Not saying it can't be done or there isn't plenty of room for innovation here, but you might consider involving a fluent pianist with your prototyping.

I think I have completed that phase by 2010.

Khuja Wangtishvili Why don't you simply call Chris Maene and tell him that his piano designs are lazy and simply wrong?

Guess what! It has been done. All sketches above has been sent to him around the end of summer 2024.

Mindbullets

I specified (like an exercise):

only examples of a bar long phrase not more than 8~12 notes.

Chopin's whole pieces are not for a total beginner such as myself. Please, be more specific.

PASHKULI Guess what! It has been done. All sketches above has been sent to him around the end of summer 2024.

Did you get any answer?