Yamaha NU1X "loud note" fix seems to cause another problem

porco_rosso · 2021-11-05T13:44:56+00:00

Hallo dear PianoClack members, I discovered your forum as an alternative to pianoworld and thought I would share the problem I have with my new Yamaha NU1X, as some of you may be interested in this. I copied and translated the description of the problem out of the Mail to my dealer: While playing, I noticed that some tones that I play forte / fortissimo do not sound as expected, but quieter and more muffled, as if I had only played mezzo forte or even mezzopiano. This does not refer to specific individual keys, but can occur with all keys. At first I didn't think anything of it, but it became more and more annoying to me. Today I tested it very systematically: I played several keys fortissimo one after the other. For example, the first two notes played sound as one would expect - but the ln the third key is much more muffled and quieter, so as I would have only played it mf. If I then play this key one or two more times, even with very high intensity, it only stays with mf instead of f / ff. If I now take a short break and start again, then the key that has just caused problems and did not want to be louder reacts normally as f / ff. If I then repeat the whole thing again with other keys, the next few keys sound again quite normally ff and suddenly dull / mf again. I wanted to take a closer look at the MIDI outputs of the keys and connected the NU1X to my laptop with Pianoteq. The program allows me to see the MIDI output (between 0 and 127; the higher the louder) of the keys being played. And then I could observe the following: When I play a key f / ff the MIDI output is around 110-120. If, however, suddenly there is one key that is quieter, the MIDI output is much lower, at around 70, as if it were limited by the software. Since the sensors work with every key, and this problem can occur with every key, I assume a software-related problem. Before the firmware update 2.10, the NU1X was affected with the so-called "loud note issue", where sometimes very loud notes suddenly appeared while playing. Examples of this can be found on youtube or forum.pianoworld. The cause of the problem was probably due to the fact that the NU1X only uses one key movement sensor, which does not work as precisely as three-sensor systems. The problem does not occur with the N1X / 2 / 3X or with the Kawai NV-5/10 with three (Kawai two) sensors incl. hammer sensor. After the problem was first denied by Yamaha, the "loud note issue" was "fixed" with the firmware update - apparently a kind of algorithm was added to the software to detect very loud MIDI velocities and reduce them to avoid the sudden occurrence of loud notes... I guess this mechanism contributes to the fact that the software in the Yamaha sometimes recognizes very high MIDI sensor velocities as "loud notes" and reduces them, which explains the sudden duller tones. Again: The problem does not relate to certain individual keys, which could then be assumed to be a fundamental fault in the sensor or the like, but affects all equally (or not). Until I discovered this problem it was a fantastic instrument. But my impressions really make sense now in the retrospective, in some pieces where I had do play f/ff I sometimes had the feeling my strike didn't translate very well in a nice, loud, growling/piercing tone. I thought it was my playing and I have to adjust to the new instrument… Today I visited the next big piano store in Berlin to test if this happens with their NU1X - it does! It seems to be a systematic error due to the "loud note issue" firmware-update "fix". The software/algorithm seems to detect intentional hard strikes sometimes (and way too often) as an unintentional "loud note" and lessen the MIDI-value, resulting in a too soft sound... But it's a false alarm. I can't believe it, how can Yamaha still produce and sell these pianos with this systematic error due to their non-sufficient one sensor system? And I can't believe how nobody has noticed this until now? It's less noticeable than a sudden out of place loud note of course, so for Yamaha this may seem to be a better "solution" than the loud note issue. I will send it back - that the keyboard responds accurately to my input is the minimum requirement for any piano, and even my Roland FP-30 can do this. Seems that there is no alternative to a NV-5S/10S or N1X, but they are much more expensive…

vagfilm

porco_rosso I really don't wanna have a months long odyssey with service technicians not able to solve the problem. And I don't want to support Yamaha for this messed up design.

Fully agree with both things...

vagfilm

porco_rosso And only effect the velocities when played in the ff range?

On this you are completely correct, and I was not thinking it through... Well... Back to the dealer it goes. One more argument for DIY hybrid pianos...

spanishbuddha

porco_rosso Hmmm.. I've spent a while now, several times, power cycling in between, different parts of the key range, different piano voices, on my NU1, not NU1X, with the loud note firmware, and cannot reproduce this!

Will try again tomorrow, but worried about hurting my fingers.

Any other NU1 or NU1X owners care to try as well and report back?

spanishbuddha

spanishbuddha OK I've had another go, fresh Sunday morning. With pedal, without pedal, legato, staccato, block chords, broken chords, scales, hanon, same note, adjacent notes, thirds, etc, but I cannot reproduce this at all. If I want a louder note, I get it every time up to my maximum arm/finger strength.

Either it's NU1X only problem, or there's another parameter to be factored in, or the instruments you tried are (batch) defective or ….?

porco_rosso

spanishbuddha Thanks for testing! That's interesting. It may be an only NU1X issue, maybe due to some changes in the sensor?

Or it could be a batch defect. But I'm not sure about this. The NU1X at JustMusic seems much older and the action felt more worn down. It is definitely there since at least last year.

RIP

spanishbuddha Either it's NU1X only problem, or there's another parameter to be factored in, or the instruments you tried are (batch) defective or ….?

porco_rosso Or it could be a batch defect. But I'm not sure about this. The NU1X at JustMusic seems much older and the action felt more worn down. It is definitely there since at least last year.

I have the NU1 too, but as I said I did not install the anti-loud-note firmware, so I can't test it, but I can speculate.

As @porco_rosso and @vagfilm discussed and eventually agreed, there is no way that this is related with the mechanics. This must be software. Since it is not happening on @spanishbuddha instrument and (weaker argument, I know) it is not discussed anywhere but this thread in this forum, I speculate that it's something relatively new in the last iteration of the firmware. Do we know for sure the version of the firmware that's installed? Do we know when was it released? Can you find someone someone else with and older version of the firmware to look at the checksum and see if Yamaha has changed the content without changing the version number?

Wait, on this latter point I can help 😁 I have a zip file of the firmware which I downloaded on May 21st (2019) and the corresponding PRG that's inside shows an April 10 of the same year. Here are the MD5 checksums:

f212c34948b2aadff389448ffce21a87 firmware/NU1x_firmware/nu1x_v210.zip
6ff06fc16ff4f387e98e48f473e3809a firmware/NU1x_firmware/NU1XSETUP.PRG

The vendor firmware page has been updated before November 2020, according to the internet archive's records: https://web.archive.org/web/2020\*/https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/nu1x_firm.html
The internet archive sadly does not have the firmware binary cached (because you need to accept terms and conditions to download it), however the version "live" on Yamaha's website is identical to mine. Same story with Europe's version of Yamaha's website. Sleuthing a bit in the internet archived versions of the USA's version of the website, one reaches a roadblock: the oldest mention of the NU1x has been archived in Sept 2017 but the more details about the instrument was cached on in August 2018 and most relevant for this discussion the firmware page was not cached at all ☹️ until few minutes ago when I nudged such caching. I did not check the Europe's website, leaving that fun to you, let alone the Japanese one which might be the best shot.

porco_rosso

Someone commented under my youtube video:

I have the same problem with my NU1X.

RIP I am not sure if I can follow you. 😅 I know that it's the 2.10 firmware that is installed on my NU1X.

RIP

porco_rosso delvento I am not sure if I can follow you. 😅 I know that it's the 2.10 firmware that is installed on my NU1X.

Sorry for being complicated. I just described all I did to investigate when this firmware was released and if there was an older one to find online. The tl;dr; version is no (unless you reach out to fellow hoarders like me on the other two or three forums and see if one has the v2.0 firmware and is able to test it out).

porco_rosso

RIP Ah ok, I see.

The other NU1X owner with the same problem answered und the video.

my NU1X is form April 2021. It was a big effort for my local piano provider, but because it's the biggest store in my country, the've managed to receive the piano (even if there is/was a global production chip problem). I am sure the problem is specific tu NU1X and also N1X, but I personally would never go back to a digital piano. So even if it is no perfect, I will stau with my hybrid or buy in the future a real upright/grnd with silent system. I want to buy an audio interface an use VST files... I hope I will get rod of the NU1X's own sound problems.

So April 2021 and October 2020, would be a pretty big batch if it was only a problem specific to a batch of NU1Xs. 😅

spanishbuddha

porco_rosso although you are returning your unit, I wonder if you are able to persuade the store owner to get a response from Yamaha. I understand if you just want to move on however.

RIP

porco_rosso April 2021 and October 2020, would be a pretty big batch

That's just 7 months. It's not unheard for batches of instruments this expensive to take a year or two to get sold. And I notice that both of them are "pandemic pianos" in which the chip shortage might have played a role, perhaps with subpar parts being used in replacement of something temporarily unavailable for the chip shortage. I am just speculating and not saying how likely this could be, but it's possible.

It'd be interesting to hear from somebody who bought a NU1x in 2017-2018. Probably @MacMacMac could help put you in touch with the person who maintained a list of all instrument purchased (the famous "price paid spreadsheet" which has been recently deleted from google 🙁 I thought I had made my own copy, but apparently that was just a link and I've lost it too 😩). The maintainer for the spreadsheet could help you put you in touch with somebody who bought a NU1x in that timeframe….

spanishbuddha I understand if you just want to move on however.

Well, if @porco_rosso did not care at all, he would not be spending time making Youtube videos and discussing it here. He probably does care at least some and at least for curiosity. Well, at least that is what I think and that is what I use to guide the tone of my responses. In the "just move on" attitude, we can simply say "good thing you're still in 30-day return period, send it back and forget about it".

MacMacMac

RIP Probably @MacMacMac could help put you in touch with the person who maintained a list of all instrument purchased (the famous "price paid spreadsheet" which has been recently deleted from google 🙁 I thought I had made my own copy, but apparently that was just a link and I've lost it too 😩). The maintainer for the spreadsheet could help you put you in touch with somebody who bought a NU1x in that timeframe….

Yes, that link to the spreadsheet is broken. So are all of the other links from that Piano World sticky thread.

I recently noticed that when I went to check email in that google account.

I don't do so very often … it's a "throwaway" email account. But when I looked I saw a long pile of messages from people requesting access to the various documents. Apparently the links were broken by what google calls "a security update". Don't ask me what that means.

Anyway, the documents are no longer accessible. But I can repost what I have if anyone is interested.

I've posted the prices paid spreadsheet HERE.

I'd like to produce a "threads" spreadsheet, like the one I did at Piano World. That was done by scraping the threads pages. Not too difficult.

I don't know how I'd do that here. This site is built on java script and this old man can't deal with that.

RIP

MacMacMac I've posted the prices paid spreadsheet HERE.

Awesome, you're the best 👍️

I've created another thread for the purpose of continuing that "tradition" here at PC, so let me comment only on the part relevant to this one.

This document is excellent for the purpose of knowing the price paid, but for the purpose of searching pre-pandemic NU1x owners, I see only one or two. I'm pretty sure the old one had earlier owners. Is that data lost?

MacMacMac

I've updated the spreadsheet to include items that were omitted before. I found two more NU1X listings. See whether that solves your puzzle.

spanishbuddha

RIP Well, if @eddiepiano did not care at all, he would not be spending time making Youtube videos and discussing it here. He probably does care at least some and at least for curiosity. Well, at least that is what I think and that is what I use to guide the tone of my responses. In the "just move on" attitude, we can simply say "good thing you're still in 30-day return period, send it back and forget about it".

It's probably, hopefully, the language, just the words, but this seems a pretty unfriendly and unnecessary response to me, when I was just asking as courteously as I could, for eddie who has no obligations to us, to follow this up a bit further?

EssBrace

No doubt I missed it whilst scanning through this thread, but I don't remember reading that the sensor calibration sequence has been run on eddie's piano? Yamaha engineers do it but I think some owners know how to do it.

CyberGene

I have the calibration procedure and I don't see a reason not to post it here.

spanishbuddha

Another NU1X owner on PW reports they cannot reproduce it. The mystery deepens.

CyberGene

@porco_rosso, sorry for the obvious question but you make sure you wait until the piano boots up (around 10 seconds) before you start playing it, right?

Also, do you have bright directed light falling at the keys and if so, have you tried temporarily switching it off, using curtains, etc?

RIP

spanishbuddha It's probably, hopefully, the language, just the words, but this seems a pretty unfriendly and unnecessary response to me, when I was just asking as courteously as I could,

Here we go, I did it twice 😢 one shortly after another. I am sorry if I sounded unfriendly, I really did not intend to at all. The purpose of my poorly written words was (is) to justify my own "insisting" with @porco_rosso further in light of your mention that he might not care anymore. You're fine 👍️ it's me that it's 👎️, sorry. I'll try to be more careful.

CyberGene I have the calibration procedure

Excellent point! Also, it'd be interesting to check if there is any influence of the soft-medium-hard keyboard "weight" which (as we all know) is purely in software, and so might change this behavior. That could be the easier explanation for

spanishbuddha Another NU1X owner on PW reports they cannot reproduce it. The mystery deepens.

(since most people leave it default and @porco_rosso might have set it to a different value).

Also:

CyberGene @eddiepiano, sorry for the obvious question but you make sure you wait until the piano boots up (around 10 seconds) before you start playing it, right?

Also, do you have bright directed light falling at the keys and if so, have you tried temporarily switching it off, using curtains, etc?

is very important (ask me how I know it… I did both mistake) good point @CyberGene for mentioning them 👍️

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