Modern D vs Pianoteq vs The People

Pete14 Why can’t we accept that Steinway likes what Modartt is doing?

I don't think Steinway knows what Modartt are doing, apart from spreading the name Steinway across the internet.

QuasiUnaFantasia I don't think Steinway knows what Modartt are doing, apart from spreading the name Steinway across the internet.

Really? Okay, you people have no limits! IMHO!

This would be like Coke allowing their name to be used next to Fentanyl; because, you know, why would Coke care about knowing who is using their likeness, or what it is that they “are doing”…..the nerve you people have!

QuasiUnaFantasia Those who make the decisions at Steinway care about money first, last, and everywhere in between.

I think there are some truth to that but I also think that it is important for Steinway that their name is equal to excellence in peoples consciousness. It's not the first time Steinway collaborates with another product brand. They have a collaboration with the Danish high end audio company Lyngdorf (you if anyone probably know that) where they offer Steinway branded audio equipment:
https://lyngdorf.steinwaylyngdorf.com/about-us/

There's not much to be read about Modartts collaboration with Steinway but Modartt seems to have collaboration with other piano companies from their piano selection that goes beyond just branding and advertising especially Petrof and Steingraeber.

Here's from Petrofs website:
https://www.petrof.com/pianoteq

Here's from Steingraebers website:
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/2018/06/pianoteq-releases-steingraeber-sound/

johanibraaten There's not much to be read about Modartts collaboration with Steinway but Modartt seems to have collaboration with other piano companies from their piano selection that goes beyond just branding and advertising especially Petrof and Steingraeber,

Oh yeah, I forgot about these two, Petrof & Steingraeber, and I wonder, do they know what Modartt is doing?

You still don’t get a very simple point. A sampled piano records a real piano. They don’t need you to believe in a fairy tale. A modeled piano is desperate to convince you that they didn’t just turn a bunch of knobs from their alleged Petrof to turn it into an alleged Steingraeber, something all the aficionados believe is possible and want you to believe all day long. Because how will then Modartt ask you for yet another €50 for just a bunch of knob turns 😉 Which is why Modart are left with the only option: to pay to these brands as a last marketing resort.

IMHO

Imagine just for a moment that Modartt decided to EQ the Petrof and sell it as a Steinway 😉 Are Steinway going to catch the fraud? How? Is there anyone at Steinway that can solve partial differential equations, so that Philippe can show his equations?

How do we know that Modartt are not milking you with one and same model being EQ-ed and a bunch of hidden knobs being turned? A sampled piano at least shows you a picture of engineers with mics in a studio recording the source piano. What is Modartt showing you to prove their genuine new model? Can we see the actual piano they modeled and the ruler they measured it with? Any spectral analyses they did to the wood? Did they take it apart? Did Steinway help them in that?

No need to answer 😉 Are you still not getting it why Pianoteq is in a desperate need of brand endorsement?

IMHO

johanibraaten It's not the first time Steinway collaborates with another product brand. They have a collaboration with the Danish high end audio company Lyngdorf (you if anyone probably know that)

Actually, I had no idea. 🙂

Pete14 Oh yeah, I forgot about these two, Petrof & Steingraeber, and I wonder, do they know what Modartt is doing?

Undoubtedly. But Steinway is an entirely different beast; it's one of the most cynical, bullying companies ever. They don't want to woo the world via excellence, they use more brutal methods for it. They went for decades with their New York instruments being deemed second tier, and they apparently couldn't care less, consistently bragging about their extreme excellence.

I think to this day instruments leaving the New York factory are not in a playable condition (I could be wrong about it, but there has been a lot of talk about it in PW).

I believe their view is this: if it carries the name Steinway, then it is the best in the world, no matter any evidence to the contrary.

CyberGene

Well, then, we have but one way to clear this whole thing up: call on Philippe himself!

Surely, he lurks ‘round here, so I ask thee, Philippe, would you be so kind as to set the record straight for these people?

Now, about these pictures “showing engineers with mics in a studio” (and I’m sure there also exists a picture or two of them engineers turning knobs and such), I’ll say this: you do know we have pictures of people landing on the moon, don’t you? (Okay, I went a little conspiracy-theorist there, but still, how do we know these “engineers” aren’t simply hired models pretending to be, well, recording a piano. I’m sure you’ll agree that these “engineers” in the pictures are simply too handsome, and I’ve never met a handsome engineer, ever, so there’s that)!

My point, if we can purportedly make a modeled Steinway sound like a Steingraeber, I don’t see how the real engineers at VSL can’t make a BallsandDorfer sound like, well, a Steinway (or the other way around); surely, they have the blueprint, so moving things a little to the left/right from a programming standpoint (and not just simple parameter tweaking) is very much possible, and now that I think of it…..🤔

IMHO!

Pete14 exactly my point. With sampling you can make the same fraud and people will trust you. With modeling you have to pay for brand names. Glad you finally got it. IMHO 😃

CyberGene

Okay, we have to tread carefully here, so, to protect us from litigation, let’s say that “allegedly it appears that this double-dipping practice is possible in theory,” but in no way are we saying that this is the case (there, I saved us from a lawsuit)….

But I have to say, in general, the piano as we know it isn’t as unique as some would have you believe, and making one sound like the other isn’t that much of a stretch; heck, Glenn Gould made his Steinway sound like a cross between a piano and a harpsichord, and he didn’t even have a VST, so if he were alive today, he’d certainly be working out some interesting concoctions….

Can we at least agree that tweaking your existing Steinway VST can indeed be all you need?

IMHO!

Pete14 that’s where modeling shot itself in the foot. They first tell you you can make any piano with that bunch of knobs and how lame the sampled pianos are because they have no bunch of knobs, figuratively speaking. Then they realize the sampled libraries can sell you a Steinway, a CFX, a Bosie, etc and are making tons of money, whereas they can’t sell you new models. Oopsie! Hence the fairy tales.

CyberGene

🤔

Pete14 Surely, your IMOs are fine, but if you really want to show your humility, I’d suggest IM(H)O, for this clearly indicates that your opinion is indeed a humble one……This is just a humble suggestion.

Well, Pete, if you're using IMHO in all your posts, I suggest something further, to show your genuine humility. Because I read "IMHO!" in your posts. You know, you should have changed that exclamation mark into a period / full stop (".). That would show that you are truly humble.

There, because you can tell others what to type and how to type what, I can tell you what to type and how to type what. There, I said it!

I simply “suggested” that CG could further emphasize his humility If he added some (h)umble pie to his IMOs, but it was completely up to him whether he wanted to (h)umble things down a bit or not; so far it seems like he has been humbled by my suggestion, for his signature now reads: “IMHO.”

Furthermore, I’d ask that you all take a bite from Pete’s humble pie, for it is made humbly by yours truly 🥧

IMHO…….!

Pete14 Furthermore, I’d ask that you all take a bite from Pete’s humble pie, for it is made humbly by yours truly

There, you’re not the moderator, but you’re telling us what to do? Nope, I’m not taking it!

Pete14 This would be like Coke allowing their name to be used next to Fentanyl; because, you know, why would Coke care about knowing who is using their likeness, or what it is that they “are doing”…..the nerve you people have!

That would be a great opportunity for them. "Now the drug cartels can sell our Coke!"

IMNSHO, of course.

I see no need for humility.
None at all.
(IMO)

MacMacMac I was just playing Pete's game. 🙂 Of course, I disagree with his views on it, but I'll keep it up for his sake to show how strange this way of talking it is, if not dumb. 🙂 So I'll only talk to him in this way, not to you.

CyberGene How do we know that Modartt are not milking you with one and same model being EQ-ed and a bunch of hidden knobs being turned?

Actually we do know that they do exactly that. They have said that to create a model (say the new Bosendorfer) they just turn a bunch of knobs (which are not available to users, not even in the Pro version) and here the model comes. They even tried (not too strongly) to encourage a marketplace of "knob turning" in which people could turn the (user available) knobs to change Steinway into Baldwin (just to mention an instrument they don't sell). In fact this knob turning seems a really hard problem for the average customer, and they typically make it sound worse. I personally don't see any problem with that.

CyberGene Are you still not getting it why Pianoteq is in a desperate need of brand endorsement?

Not sure if it's "desperate" but it certainly helps their marketing, and hence why most people (including in this thread) think that Modartt pays the acoustic brands to use their names and logos. AFAIK the terms of the agreements (who pays who, if at all, let alone the amount) has never been disclosed.

Pete14 This would be like Coke allowing their name to be used next to Fentanyl; because, you know, why would Coke care about knowing who is using their likeness, or what it is that they “are doing”…..the nerve you people have!

Obviously Pete is exaggerating in his usual way, but he has a point. Modartt has been able to secure the names and logos of pretty much all the major acoustic piano manufacturers still in business today, with the exception of Kawai (I'm counting Yamaha in with Bosendorfer which they control, and I'm not counting Mason and Hamlin since it's a pretty small volume manufacturer -- if you want add those two and say "all manufacturers but 3").

If you want to dismiss that, fine, but it's a pretty huge accomplishment, in my opinion. At least one of this must be true:

• Modartt is really a cunning company with deep pockets
• All acoustic piano manufacturers are really desperate for money and advertisement and (to piggyback on Pete's hyperbole) would put their name next to anything to get the money
• All acoustic piano manufacturers are idiots (or have poor earing)
• Pianoteq actually sound "good enough" for most people

Did I forget any other possibility? Here are my opinions on these options

• I think the first has close to 0% chances of being true
• I think the second is definitely true for some manufacturers, but it can't be true for them all. For example, Steinway refuses to sell their stencils to registered piano technicians as described in various places so it would be very strange that they forbade the use of their trademark to those that repair their product following their guidelines, but allow such use to Pianoteq, without checking it and deeming it at least okay. Also, for any manufacturer, endorsing a sampler would be much better marketing than endorsing a model, since they could tell: we are the best, and the second best is a recording of the actual thing! So why no endorsements there?
• Ditto for the third: one idiot, maybe two or even three fine. But all of them?
• My opinion is that this must be the most likely option

If my opinion is correct (which might or might not), I'm even willing to say that the ones who hate/dislike it could have an above average or even excellent hearing in some ways which I tried (and failed) to characterize. And of course there would be "borderline" people, like myself, who could hear some flaws in the Pianoteq instruments, but not so much to make it unbearable (I'm speaking of the last version, the previous ones were indeed not good enough for me).

RIP I think the second is definitely true for some manufacturers, but it can't be true for them all. For example, Steinway refuses to sell their stencils to registered piano technicians as described in ... so it would be very strange that they forbade the use of their trademark to those that repair their product following their guidelines, but allow such use to Pianoteq, without checking it and deeming it at least okay.

Those piano technicians, selling used Steinway piano's are in direct competition with Steinway. Modartt does not compete with Steinway, nor do any of the other VI makers, so Steinway probably are not loosing any sleep over their products carrying the Steinway name. Instead they get some advertising directed towards mostly young people, who may one day be wealthy enough to upgrade to an acoustic.

Anyway, that is how I see it.