Modern D vs Pianoteq vs The People

doctae

Oh weird! I didn't realize it didn't save in the project file. Here's the script. It's all the same logic as Olivier's, I think I just renamed a few vars while debugging so it made more sense (to me) what was going on.

desc: Reaper Script to enable silent key for VSL Pianos and disable VSL Sustain samples for use with Pianoteq
desc: 12/3/2023 - Olivier W. Frappier

@init
sustainVal = 0;        // current sustain value from the original MIDI
overrideActive = 0;    // are we currently overriding sustainVal?

minVelocity = 2;       // minimum velocity (anything lower will silent-key)

controlChange = 176;   // status byte 176 = control change
sustainPedal = 64;     // cc 64 = sustain
noteOnCmd = $x90;      // command 0x90 = note on 

@slider

@block
  overrideActive == 1 ? (
    // clear sustain pedal override
    midisend(ts, controlChange, sustainPedal, sustainVal);
    noteOnState = 0;
  );
 
  // intercept MIDI messages
  while (midirecv(offset, msg1, msg2, msg3)) (
    ((msg2 == sustainPedal) && (msg1 == controlChange)) ? (
      sustainVal = msg3;
    );

    // is it a note-on?
    msg1 == noteOnCmd ? ( 
      // override sustain pedal value to 0 to trigger pedal-up (dampers-down) sample
      midisend(ts, controlChange, sustainPedal, 0); 
      overrideActive = 1;
      
      // if the note velocity is below the minimum, drop it to 0 so VSL will silent-key
      msg3 < minVelocity ? msg3 = 0; ( 
        midisend(offset, msg1, msg2, msg3);
      )
    ) : (
      // pass through other events
      midisend(offset, msg1, msg2, msg3);
    )
  );

I ask this out of genuine cusiosity. If Pianoteq is so bad, why do most of the top brands endorse it and let them use names and models, whereas the other VI creators have to make up suggestive names for their instruments?

amc252 easy. Pianoteq pays to those brands because if it bears no real name, nobody will recognize what that sound is, they all sound the same: synthetic. Sampled pianos don’t have to convince you, it’s sure they recorded a real piano, so they can save on royalties.

I don’t believe in the “endorse” theory. If it was true, how come VSL and Garritan were “endorsed” by Yamaha and not Modartt?

BTW, there’s a contradiction with Pianoteq. Everybody tells you that modeling is so powerful, you can tweak it to sound like every piano in the world. Yet, they can keep on purchasing new models, instead of exchanging free presets that can supposedly do the same? Or not? 🧐

amc252
the same reason why we don't label the foods in our fridges, we already know what they are because of how they look, smell and taste like.
but every ptq model sounds like the others so they had to label them to (maybe) avoid confusion.

CyberGene easy. Pianoteq pays to those brands because if they don’t mention a real name, nobody will recognize what that sound is, they all sound the same, synthetic. Sampled pianos don’t have to convince you, it’s sure they recorded a real piano, so they can save on royalties.

That would have been my guess. Now, I have no idea what the numbers are in terms of money involved in the VI business vs acoustic pianos. But a company like Steinway, which does not allow anyone to put a Steinway sticker on their rebuilt pianos unless they have been rebuit by Steinway, seems to be pretty serious about their brand identity. That they would allow something that sound like a generic piano to be sold as a specific Steinway model seem odd. Are they strugging so badly finacially or are Modartt's pockets so deep?

amc252 sampled pianos also use the Steinway name. The endorse theory is wrong because endorsing means: this is our official virtual piano equivalent. There can’t be many, only one. Yet, there are many. So, no, it’s not endorsing, they just get paid to allow you to use the Steinway brand.

pianow but every ptq model sounds like the others so they had to label them to (maybe) avoid confusion.

I beg to differ on this point. Even to my unexpert ears, each Pianoteq piano sounds quite distinctive. Whether they sound good or anywhere close the real thing is another matter, of course.

amc252 I ask this out of genuine cusiosity. If Pianoteq is so bad, why do most of the top brands endorse it and let them use names and models, whereas the other VI creators have to make up suggestive names for their instruments?

🤔

CyberGene BTW, there’s a contradiction with Pianoteq. Everybody tells you that modeling is so powerful, you can tweak it to sound like every piano in the world. Yet, they can keep on purchasing new models, instead of exchanging free presets that can supposedly do the same? Or not? 🧐

Well, if it isn’t the pot calling the kettle black!

You people jump at the first announcement of a “new” piano; even though it’s usually the same old beaten up D; whence you could’ve just tweaked your existing “presets.”

Pete14 that’s a deflection. You didn’t answer 😉

😇

CyberGene Yet, they can keep on purchasing new models, instead of exchanging free presets that can supposedly do the same? Or not?

It's my understanding that certain parameters aren't controllable through the UI or saveable in an FXP. I agree there's a certain Pianoteq "flavor" that's baked into every model, but there are other timbral distinctions that change from model to model via private/hidden params in the model (e.g. I'll never get the pteq 1922 Erard to sound like the 280 VC).

I never liked diet soda, though I could always tell which high-fructose corn syrup counterpart they were trying to mimic. Regardless, they all still tasted "diet" in the same way to me, and that was the overwhelming flavor that put me off (back when I drank any of that garbage). My wife was the opposite and hated the full sugar sodas, but loved aspartame.

Anyway, I feel like something similar is at the root of all this Pianoteq polarization. Different strokes I guess.

Mindbullets
of course there's a difference, but not the difference between piano brands
i can use an EQ to make 1000 different piano sounds with only one piano (vi)
but none of them sound like different brands, they just sound different to each other (brighter, darker, thicker, punchier, more ambient etc etc..., and a good ear can always tell what piano brand it is regardless of how processed the sound migh be.

Be advised there’s an old and grumpy troll posting huge, tacky, childish signs: “Don’t feed the troll,” but oddly enough he’s the one disrupting with these childish tactics, and, of course, a very few (like him ) will join, but most ignore him, and continue to engage Pete. How do you like them apples!

I “trolled” CG on his ambivalent grammar, “bunch of recordings,” and guess what? He didn’t plaster a huge, tacky sign attempting to silence “the troll;” he engaged me, and out of this interaction came some good stuff, like, for example, the “Modartt Patent;” which I’m certain some people didn’t know about; we further discussed the pros & cons inherent to both technologies (if partly in jest), we discussed grammar, and cultural differences, and someone had the audacity to ask ‘why is Pianoteq allowed to use the “likes” of these brands if Pianoteq is so bad’? A valid question……..and the conversation continues.

I do find it odd that the same person that claims to “miss Pete,” then turns around and labels him a troll; are you not taking your meds?

BTW, I’ve had entire threads opened (here and at PW) with the only intent being to embarrass me into a corner, and we all know how that turned out, yet a PW member (Dogperson) simply told me to “stop it,” and I did just that; why?because she meant it genuinely and not maliciously.

Yes, I can get carried away, but trying to bully me into silence doesn’t work; you simply ask, like David Lai did, and I will backdown if I deem it appropriate.

I will chime here as a compulsive piano VI buyer 😬. My addiction lets me have and enjoy plenty of different piano-like sounds. I have also a plethora of DPs and synths, but I leave them aside here.

So I have Pianoteq 8 (bought v6 as first one and updated late to v7 so, when v8 was launched, I had it for free). All in all, to my very own ears, and doing some A/B between versions, there is a difference on them. There is improvement IMO.

But, for me, playing sampled pianos is usually less hard to my ears in daily one hour plus sessions. So I end playing sampled just because I can do it longer. I am in no way an expert on acoustic pianos. Only have my U3H to easily compare. For me, no VST yet can compare to my experience playing it. Yes, it is a humble upright. But still is a complete different experience than anything I play with my VPC1. Headphones are better to get an immersive experience than speakers, but still not up to par with the feeling of an acoustic under my fingers. The closest thing is the Modern U, as the tone is similar to my U3H.

On the other side, it is refreshing the variety of piano sounds I can have on my setup. And of course, night time practice won't be possible with only the U3H. So I am glad there are so many possibilities and I will keep adding to my sound palette.

So I have covered Pianoteq and the people (well, one person take). About Modern D… time will tell 😉

Jose

I don’t see the contradiction between modelling and sampling technology. To me it’s two different technologies that both have their strengths and weaknesses and are suitable for different situations. I like to think of it in reflection of different image making technologies where sampling is like images made of pixels and modelling is like vector graphics. I think few would argue against that a pixel image (still) is the best digital way to reproduce a scenery from the real world whereas vector graphics are superior in being flexible. To me it’s like having an argument about which is the best image making program, Illustrator or Photoshop.

I am certainly one to take blame for engaging in the heated discussions but I never start bashing Pianoteq without first being provoked. And there are people who just can’t stand anyone loving something different than PT. One makes a discussion about their new favorite software piano and then those people are quick to ridicule it. That’s when PT battles start. Think about it.

CyberGene Good point. There are some rather Provoking PTQ Posters out here that, in all honesty, I don't understand their logic, if it could be called thus. But at the end of the day, I'm glad I think differently than them, and I'm glad my appreciation for what's real and authentic is still there. That's something they can never take from me!

HZPiano About Modern D, you mention not having listened to it yet for lack of time. Should you find time and some gusto, I suggest you do before somewhat dismissing it as "cannot be good either".

So I took the time to do that and I concluded that it's not for me. At the risk of being thrown rotten tomatoes, eggs and blunt objects, I'd say that there are some circumstances in which some aspects of its sound in the bass are similar to Pianoteq version 6 (note that I wrote some and I know, nuance is impossible these days you are either bright as the Sun from 10 miles above its surface or dark as dark matter in the intergalactic space).

To be clear, I don't say that as an offense. I did not like Pianoteq at that version (I bought it later when they improved that characteristic), but when I pointed it out to some people, some of them did not consider it such a big deal, as I am sure some of you don't consider this such a big deal in Modern D.

And to continue to be clear, there are some things in Modern D tone that make it much more realistic than Pianoteq, just that those do not justify the cost (including the OS change) for me, especially considering the lack of demo license and of money back guarantee. Remaining in the same company, Ravencroft 275 would be a better choice for me, considering the demos I've heard. I might think about purchasing that one, in the iOS version (which is more limited but also much more cheap).

CyberGene I am certainly one to take blame for engaging in the heated discussions but I never start bashing Pianoteq without first being provoked.

Since this is my thread, I'll repeat: what I find annoying is not you expressing that opinion. If you say

To me Pianoteq sounds like crap falling into the water when I sit on porcelain throne

that is totally fine: I don't care what you like or don't. I may even engage in the discussion and ask "how is that different than rocks thrown into a pond?" or the like.

What I find completely annoying is a few people insisting that since X sounds like crap to them then it must sound like crap to everyone, and if anyone disagree then they must be an idiot (or have a "bad ear" or similar). I've seen a lot of these statements, for both X=Pianoteq or X=ModernD, explicit or implicit and that annoys me a lot. Like what you like, dislike what you dislike, and feel free to explain why and argue with others who disagree. But be respectful of these others who disagree, because they are not idiots, they are human beings in their musical journey like you.

I think @Mindbullets and @johanibraaten put it right.