Jane Caig Laboratories has an extensive set of cleaning and lubing products. I told you to use D5 as it is a generic cleaner which I have used for a long time on my work with stellar results, but specific products may be even better. Unfortunately here in Spain is really difficult and expensive to get them. There is also an specific grease for pots, but applying it usually involves full disassembly, which may be tricky.
I am glad you have got it working, good job!
Deoxit F5 is the fader spray, or the F100L liquid. There are similar fader/pot sprays (cleaning+lubrication/protection) of other brands, Deoxit seems to cost as much as the pedal around here. Specialty stuff, often not in stock locally. Water-free isopropyl alcohol should be okay for cleaning. I understand preferably the pot axis shouldn't get soaked (may require different lubrication).
Translated with Google.
Hello everyone!
I have used VSL Synchron Concert D-274 so far. I am a professional classical pianist. I am also a Steinway fan and like the sound of other manufacturers less. Among other things, what bothered me about VSL was:
1. Amateurish recording:
a) Noise. Clinking and clicking on some high notes.
b) Differences between adjacent keys in terms of loudness at the same velocity level.
c) Out-of-tune and poorly prepared grand piano.
d) Bad-sounding microphones. The best was "main".
2. No recording of the black keys! This was discovered because some adjacent keys had the same noise at the same velocity level and because the uncompressed size was suspiciously small. This was confirmed in a private chat. That is completely unacceptable.
3. Refusal to listen to professional pianists and provide updates.
4. Unrealistic release samples.
5. Unrealistic implementation of the sustain pedal:
a) If the sustain pedal is released while the key is pressed, the sustain pedal sample continues to sound.
b) If the sustain pedal is pressed while the key is pressed, the non-sustain pedal sample continues to sound.
c) When using the robot finger, it was forgotten that the keys are a little easier to play with the sustain pedal pressed because the dampers do not have to be raised with the force of the finger. (They are already up.) This meant that two quiet notes, pressed once in and once outside the sustain pedal, were significantly different in volume at exactly the same velocity level. Of course, you expect a fuller sound with the pedal because the other strings resonate, but it must not be massively louder. An example is Chopin's first ballad, bar 9. pianow has already mentioned this problem.
6. The demos are absolutely ridiculous and embarrassing. Why didn't they hire professional pianists?! A product like this can't be good if no professional pianist is involved. I was sad because I didn't know how many years VSL would need to carefully reissue it.
I'm going to test Modern D tomorrow (NT1). I'm already convinced that this is a big step forward. Bravo for the demos. They are good enough to show impressively what is possible. You won't find that with any other manufacturer. David would certainly have been able to show off his skills much better on an N1 or Steinway Spirio. When it comes to sound, however, I agree with johanibraaten's assessment (Oct 3), which is not 100% positive. I also think that the sound in the upper half of the keyboard could be a bit (!) more colorful, airy and lively. It's quite possible that it's the new grand piano. Or it still has too few velocity layers. I'm not even going to talk about the other competitors (Ivory, Pianotec etc.) here because in my opinion they are more in line with a cheap Casio plastic keyboard than with a Steinway D-274. I played on Steinway D for years (study, competitions) and I think Ivory 3 is a bad joke.
My questions about Modern D:
How many velocity layers? I don't agree with the above opinion that less is more. Why wasn't Spirio used? Is it not that precise? I would prefer 127 velocity layers. 1 TB is fine. :-)
Can someone make comparisons with Spirio (live recording from a Steinway Spirio D vs Modern D with the same MIDI files?
What is the current status of the issues (release samples, polyphony, sustain pedal)?
Is it lossless compressed (flac)?
Has anyone tested it with AltiVerb?
Is the sympathetic resonance added on top of the pedal resonance (which isn't what would happen in a real piano)?
Greetings!
pc-king To answer some of your questions:
1. The official documents don't say how many velocity layers exactly was used, only that it's 34,615 samples. There are no separate pedal down and up samples, rather it's controlled live by sampled resonances. All VI Labs instruments are sampled by hand, not using robotic means. This ensures the richest way of expression. Personally, if orchestral and percussion instruments can be sampled by hand, why not pianos as well?
2. This is lossless compressed FLAC, so a big library with small size. The lossless compression uses an open source file format.
3. The built-in reverb engine under UVI is very good. I haven't used any external reverbs with it, but I believe you can play with the sound as much as you'd like, because the piano was recorded dry.
Hope this helps.
David
David Lai Hi David
Do you know if all the keys were recorded?
pc-king yes, it’s chromatically sampled. Also, this piano includes una corda and muted strikes (muting the string with a gloved hand while playing the key with the other).
pc-king The demos are absolutely ridiculous and embarrassing.
Yikes! Picky, picky. 😀
I've heard over the years that VSL pianos are better intended for movie scoring and such, and not ideal for solo piano. Since I'm more of a beginner/intermediate player, a lot of the precision necessary for a professional pianist is lost on me. However, here are the things from your list that I have noticed using VSL products.
pc-king b) Differences between adjacent keys in terms of loudness at the same velocity level.
Thankfully, that can be mitigated with single note editing in the superb Synchron Piano software.
pc-king 5. Unrealistic implementation of the sustain pedal:
The lack of sympathetic resonances and una corda always made VSL pianos sound a little sterile to me.
pc-king c) When using the robot finger, it was forgotten that the keys are a little easier to play with the sustain pedal pressed because the dampers do not have to be raised with the force of the finger. (They are already up.) This meant that two quiet notes, pressed once in and once outside the sustain pedal, were significantly different in volume at exactly the same velocity level. Of course, you expect a fuller sound with the pedal because the other strings resonate, but it must not be massively louder. An example is Chopin's first ballad, bar 9. pianow has already mentioned this problem.
This is not a problem on all of their pianos, but I did inquire when I noticed it on my Bosendorfer Imperial. I sent VSL recordings of the issue and I was surprised by their response. They basically said it's the nature of the piano or something like that. I can't quite remember. There was no admission that it was actually a sampling error which I think it is.
I really can't answer your questions about the Modern D, but here are few thoughts.
pc-king I also think that the sound in the upper half of the keyboard could be a bit (!) more colorful, airy and lively.
I don't hear an imbalance between the upper and lower registers. The entire piano appears to be consistently voiced. One thing I like about the subdued tone and voicing of this piano is that I can play it indefinitely without getting ear fatigue. It's mellow and warm with a tone that I'd like to have if this piano was in my living room.
pc-king Is the sympathetic resonance added on top of the pedal resonance (which isn't what would happen in a real piano)?
I don't know, but sympathetic resonance is where the difference between the Modern D and VSL is night and day. The Modern D does not have that sterile feel I mentioned earlier with the VSL pianos. The Modern D is more lush, and forgive me @Pete14 for saying this, more organic. 😀
The Modern D is the current king of virtual pianos, in my humble opinion, of course.
God Bless,
David
David B The Modern D is the current king of virtual pianos, in my humble opinion, of course.
Well, I still love it after all these months, and every day practicing with it. It responds and reacts just like the actual physical instrument according to my experiencees playing concert grands. So yes, as far as grand pianos are concerned, Modern D takes the crown.
Pete14 Has any of you a Ph.D.?
I’m on my way, but it’s a D(octor of).M(usic). But the overall level is the same.
So, you do agree that a’ Ph.D. is better than the very-basic MD?
BTW, as a “Doctor of Music” would you be required by law to assist in case of a “musical” emergency if someone asks “is there a doctor in the house?”
Pete14 i’m afraid you are seriously mistaken. I’m not a medical doctor. My degree that I’m working towards is a performance driven academic doctoral degree. It’s similar to PhD, otherwise known as doctor of philosophy. The only difference is, a PhD in music related areas is more theory and research driven than performance, pedagogy and writing focused. So, similar level in professionalism, different areas of focus.
Pete14 So, you do agree that a’ Ph.D. is better than the very-basic MD?
I don’t, and it’s DM, doctor of music, not MD, medical doctor.
Pete14 The MD can’t hold a candle to a’ Ph.D. (Pete’s Huge D)
There is lots of evidence to support the virtues of the Modern D, but nothing to support the Ph. D you speak of. I wonder if this is a case of wishful thinking? 😀
God Bless,
David
P.S. Don't feel too bad Pete. You have a good personality and girls are always looking for more friends to talk to. 😉
David B There is lots of evidence to support the virtues of the Modern D, but nothing to support the Ph. D you speak of. I wonder if this is a case of wishful thinking?
I assure you, Pete’s D is huge; hence the moniker: Ph.D. (Pete’s Huge D)…..😊
Yes, some have questioned its hugeness (or that it even exists), but I will soon be releasing PHD if only to crush that puny MD!
wow that's a long hate_story there (about the concert d)
but i fully agree that it's not the best recorded/sampled piano out there, however there are certain things you can do to improve this, like a soft but deep compression (2.0 ratio and -25db threshold for example - you can always go further with it) i think this trick can bring out so much color and realism to the sound, i mean i've never been able to hear the exact differences between the microphones, yes some of them are bright and some are dark, but that's not really the case about mic positions especially when you have 10 different mics to choose from, with the compression applied, you can immediately hear the most important thing about every mic pos, for example the side/mid mics have a lot of cabinet resonance baked in which is impossible to hear by default, and the close mics are truly different to each other, you don't have to mix all three together to sound good, every one of them is capable of giving you a full musical experience, in the matter of fact, mixing several close mics is a worse case scenario especially for synchrons, (anyway that compression technique is something most audio engineers do to get all the richness that a piano offers, maybe not so deep but still)
about voicing now… those clicks are some kind of side effect of how sharp this piano been voiced, the hammers are prepared to pierce through metal really, and that's because they (vsl) wanted to deliver the most dynamic experience with a virtualized piano, personally can't say they have failed.
anyway i'm not saying it's the best piano out there, and it definitely isn't my personal favorite, i just wanted to say that you absolutely can get something good out of it, because in the end of the day, it's a very expensive product.
David B This is not a problem on all of their pianos, but I did inquire when I noticed it on my Bosendorfer Imperial. I sent VSL recordings of the issue and I was surprised by their response. They basically said it's the nature of the piano or something like that. I can't quite remember. There was no admission that it was actually a sampling error which I think it is.
i was so disappointed by their bosenforfer imperial pedal behavior, the sustain pedal basically cuts everything below mezzo piano, and with a little compression applied, the sustain pedal becomes significantly louder, this is the reason i never bought it, even though it's my ideal SOUNDING piano, what i shame 🙁
I've just picked up Modern-D in their sale and am extremely impressed with the realism and detail of this library. This piano has taken my number one spot for when I need as realistic and authentic piano sound and playability that I can get.
I love the layout, workflow and feature set of this library and find it extremely intuitive to use. I'm still new to it so will keep experimenting with all the various parameters but so far this library sounds and feels the closest to a real piano as I've found in a sample library including the VSL Synchron libraries that I tried!
