My quest for an acoustic upright piano (finally)

johanibraaten

kawafanboi Acoustic instruments especially pianos are highly impractical

So is love😊

Pete14

johanibraaten

A great philosopher once said:

What’s love, but a second-hand emotion!

HZPiano

johanibraaten So is love😊

😃

Truer words are seldomly spoken…

Cheers and love,

porco_rosso

Today I played a Kawai K15 ATX3 L and also liked it very much!

The action felt nicer and more premium/expensive with less friction than the Yamaha and it also sounded "bigger", with a deeper base and a clearer tone, but it was also louder and pp(p) playing wasn't as easy as on the B1 but still possible. The action felt responsive and quick. I like that the Silent System of the Yamaha just a tiny tiny bit more, but both are excellent imo. There is no K15 Aures, so if I want Transacoustic I must go with Yamaha.

I also played the NV5S again and imo the K15 and B1 sound much better than the NV5S with speakers. The NV5S sound really good for a digital piano - but that's it. And somehow the action in the NV5S felt more sluggish and slow than both the K15 action and the Millennium 3 actions in the K200/300.

I've recorded some Videos of the K15, the NV5S and the B1 - two Pieces, "One Summer's Day" from Joe Hisaishi and "Gymnopedie No. 1" from Erik Satie. These are just spontaneous smartphone recordings.
Sorry for the mistakes. Especially when playing the Yamaha B1 my hands were still cold from outside and the playing of the other person distracted me a bit.

Joe Hisaishi - One Summer's Day:

Kawai K15:

https://youtu.be/w2vSv5eyhAo

Yamaha B1:

https://youtu.be/2Bjujje-y44

Kawai NV5S:

https://youtu.be/asXYrwuS9GI

I will upload the Gymnopedie Videos later.

porco_rosso

Jose EB5AGV that is my approach, but in this case the problem is, IMO, that the location of the acoustic is too compromised regarding playing hours. So the only one piano idea makes sense

Yes, otherwise I can see that acoustic + seperate digital is also a good option.

RIP The good news is that he can rent it, and given his previous experiences with buying pianos and then disliking them and having to sell (at a loss? I forgot that detail), I hope he'll chose the rental option which would cost him only a limited amount of money in case he decides to move on for the future.

First I have to decide between K15 AT3 and B1 SC3/TC3 and the if I will rent or buy it (the latter can be quite a bit less expensive). But it's between these models, hybrids and other models are out of question.

RIP By the way, very nice reading your excitement for various instruments and your changes of mind!

I'm glad it's interesting. 🙂

kawafanboi this was all but inevitable. logical thought dictates that Acoustic instruments especially pianos are highly impractical.

..saw this coming 🙃

After all it will be an acoustic piano, just with silent/transacoustic functionality. Because… there are also practical sites of the acoustic vs. hybrid-only (longevity, maintenance, repair and regulation access and cost). Also unfortunately the speakers on Hybrids doesn't come close sound wise even to the cheapest entry-level uprights.

porco_rosso

Erik Satie - Gymnopedie No. 1 (just the first half)

Kawai K15 ATX3L

https://youtu.be/XEMcdhvJ4ek

Yamaha B1 SC3

https://youtu.be/d5oVe-4fjRk

Kawai NV5S

https://youtu.be/8dBgbCAE9Y4

SouthPark

NV5S 'sounds' the part for both cases here - for ghibli and gymno. But that's to my 'ears' only. Noting it is from phone recording. Excellent effort in doing those comparisons. Thumbs up.

CyberGene

porco_rosso wow, that little Yamaha is in a class of its own, especially for that Japanese anime song. I have a friend of mine who has the b1 (just the regular acoustic version) and he’s a famous jazz pianist here and he swears by it. I’ve never tested though but I’m in love with what I hear in your video. BTW, I’ve played the cheapest possible Kawai upright, I don’t remember the model, could’ve been K15, not sure and it was such a nice piano. It’s amazing how decent and affordable upright piano building has become if even the cheapest Indonesian made Yamaha and Kawai uprights are that good! I started dreaming again but the neighbors would just kill me…

P.S. in both your videos the Yamaha tends to have a more pronounced timbre variation both between dynamics, but also in time - between attack and decay, it has a nice bell-like attack followed by a soft sustain, such a lovely sound. The Kawai is not bad but it’s duller overall and kind of static between attack and decay. Both can serve a purpose but my heart goes for the Yamaha which just sounds livelier and richer in what it can produce.

navindra

CyberGene I was going to say the exact same thing. The Yamaha definitely stood out to me as well.

CyberGene

navindra just added a P.S. to my post above to elaborate on what I like in the Yamaha.

SouthPark

The NV5S ghibli is actually making me tear-up right now as I'm listening to the NV5S one. The combo of the music, and that particular sound. It is beautiful. And don't worry folks - I'm mentally stable and strong. I really like what I'm hearing from the NV5S for the ghibli.

porco_rosso

Thank you for all for your replies!

SouthPark The NV5S ghibli is actually making me tear-up right now as I'm listening to the NV5S one. The combo of the music, and that particular sound. It is beautiful. And don't worry folks - I'm mentally stable and strong. I really like what I'm hearing from the NV5S for the ghibli.

Thank you. It means a lot, I'm glad you like it. I don't think you have to assure us that you are mentally stable just because you tear-up listening to music - we are music lovers and that's why we are here! I teared up many times to Ghibli movies and Joe Hisaishis fantastic music…

CyberGene It’s amazing how decent and affordable upright piano building has become if even the cheapest Indonesian made Yamaha and Kawai uprights are that good! I started dreaming again but the neighbors would just kill me…

After one night sleep and hearing these videos again I am surprised once again how good these two instruments sound. I must admit shamefully that I haven't even considered the Yamaha B1 (or the whole B-Series) and the Kawai K15 before because of their "cheapo" image and small size, but these two particular instruments sounded and played (!) better than even many many bigger and more expensive German/Japanese uprights. I really am a bit confused. I always thought they would just sound thin and metallic with no dynamic and timbre variation whatsoever.

CyberGene P.S. in both your videos the Yamaha tends to have a more pronounced timbre variation both between dynamics, but also in time - between attack and decay, it has a nice bell-like attack followed by a soft sustain, such a lovely sound. The Kawai is not bad but it’s duller overall and kind of static between attack and decay. Both can serve a purpose but my heart goes for the Yamaha which just sounds livelier and richer in what it can produce.

Yeah, I know and hear what you mean. It does sound sweet and lovely. The B1 sound is more complex, but the K15 sounds really good too with it's more straightforward sound. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that this specific B1 was already sold.

CyberGene

porco_rosso The B1 sound is more complex, but the K15 sounds really good too with it's more straightforward sound

To be frank, the Kawai is closer to a grand piano sound, more consistent in timbre. But, again, there’s some sparkle in the Yamaha that may be less suitable for every repertoire, yet makes it more interesting and individual.

I think one can’t go wrong with either. I just checked that the piano I tested some years ago was indeed the K15 and I was at the store for something else and snobbishly didn’t even want to touch it but out of boredom I did and had the exact same surprising realization that it’s so much better than what I expected from a ridiculously short and cheap upright (I think it was sold for €3000 brand new). I probably played it for 20 minutes.

porco_rosso

I saw a video from a dutch piano technician who installed two Dayton exciters to the soundboard of a Yamaha acoustic silent piano for a very cheap and self-made Tranacoustic/Aures piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XJj0V6k-bA&t=72s

There is a DIY tutorial in dutch: https://www.vandongenpianos.nl/diy-silent-systeem-upgraden-naar-hybride-systeem/

Here in Englisch from google translate: https://www-vandongenpianos-nl.translate.goog/diy-silent-systeem-upgraden-naar-hybride-systeem/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Seems to be pretty cheap and very easy to install. 🙂 Maybe I will just get a SC3/ATX3 and the try this out if I have the need need.

porco_rosso

I found a Yamaha B1 Silent in a really nice and beautiful beech veneer, but it's in West Germany.

Con: It's from 2009 - do you know what silent system Yamaha installed back then? Which sample (is it the same like in the N1/NU1, which would be okay)?
I asked the dealer for a sound snippet of the acoustic sound and if it has a MIDI out.

Pro: It's of course much cheaper than a new one and the veneer is really nice and would fit in my room. 🙂 The Bench is really nice and sleek too!

porco_rosso

I already got three video snippets from this B1 (but will only share the soundfiles, not the videos) - what do you think? I have an opinion, but want you to be unbiased and would really appreciate it. 🙂

audio-00.m4a

audio-01.m4a

audio-02.m4a

QuasiUnaFantasia

porco_rosso In terms of its "aliveness" it knocks the socks off any digital piano (and it is most probably very loud compared to a digital), but the tone is a bit too treble rich for my taste, and there is at least one key which has a tendency towards a high pitched vibration sound (which I suppose could be fixed by a technician).

johanibraaten

porco_rosso I already got three video snippets from this B1 (but will only share the soundfiles, not the videos) - what do you think? I have an opinion, but want you to be unbiased and would really appreciate it. 🙂

It's hard to tell due to the lacking soundquality and the poor acoustics of the room but I would say that the piano needs a voicing to come to its full potential as the mid and treble sounds quite harsh. The mids/upper bass also sounds a little "dead" to my ears which might not be so easy to fix with voicing as it can be a characteristic of the instrument. It sounds better at soft dynamics though but again it's really hard to tell as the recording quality isn't the best.

porco_rosso It's from 2009 - do you know what silent system Yamaha installed back then? Which sample (is it the same like in the N1/NU1, which would be okay)?

I don't know what silent system this piano has but I believe the N1 and the NU1 doesn't have the same piano sound. The N1 contains a sample from the CFIIIS and, If I'm not wrong, I think the NU1 has an early version of the CFX. I would say that both are perfectly fine in a silent piano though and there's also the possibilities with midi/VI:s.

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