Personal pronouns, gender, equality, etc.

CyberGene Of course. I agree. I was just responding to the assertion that referring to an individual as "they" is grammatically wrong or new. The political and grammatical issues are separate.

Yes, "they" has been misused for a long time as a singular. But it is misleading. Just as are other forms of misuse.

I find it discouraging that incorrect usage abounds, even among professional writers. But that does not make it correct.

Note, though, that some believe that language is and should be the way people use it. I think this evolves to make language less meaningful. Speech is already ambiguous enough. I don't like incorrect usage. We all make mistakes. But let's not defend them.

MacMacMac

Tim went to the market.

= They went to the market.

It wasn't a good day for Tim.

= It wasn't a good day for them.

There's no necessity to use He and Him in those two sentences. English is magical 🙂

That said, there are some extremist woke happenings that I find completely absurd - like the UK outlawing 'breast feeding': now it's called 'chest feeding'!

burkey Tim went to the market.

= They went to the market.

It wasn't a good day for Tim.

= It wasn't a good day for them.

At school I learned that:

Tim => He went to the market.
Tim and Tom => They went to the market.

Now are you saying you can use "they" in both the sentences? Sorry, I'm not English, so that's very confusing...

magicpiano

Read a few English books - it's not at all confusing, e.g:

'Where did Tim abscond to?'

'They went and hid in the dunny!'

(Dunny is Australian slang for toilet / lavatory)

burkey

You'll find a plenty of English books, where it's not the case. Especially classics. I think they instead of he/she is quite a new phenomenon. At least common usage of it. There is an interesting article on Times from 2019 on this subject.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5748649/word-of-year-they-merriam-webster/%3famp=true

So, rather than:

• Call that person. Tell him/her he/she is late.

I should write:

• Call that person. Tell them they are late.

?

It sounds to me like writing of the time of Shakespeare...

P.S.: but I understand it's more convenient when you don't know the sex of the person or you don't want to disclose it…

In English, when gender is immaterial the first-person singular pronouns are he/him/his.
If you prefer he/she, him/her, and his/hers, that's fine.

But one person ought not be referred to as they.
Many people do so, but THEY are wrong.
MacMacMac doesn't use the incorrect construction, and HE is right.
Mary does it properly, so SHE is right.
Do you know someone who uses the proper words? If so, HE is right.
Or HE/SHE is right. That's wordy perhaps. But it's correct.
It's all quite simple. But I guess the hypersensitive cannot stomach it. 🙂

Notice, though, that many European languages assign a gender to EVERY noun. And some (most?) require an article in front of every noun, so the article is likewise gendered. So why don't we hear about gender sensitivity from France, Spain, Italy? Perhaps it's because they know how to speak and write properly in their own language.

MacMacMac Notice, though, that many European languages assign a gender to EVERY noun. And some (most?) require an article in front of every noun, so the article is likewise gendered. So why don't we hear about gender sensitivity from France, Spain, Italy? Perhaps it's because they know how to speak and write properly in their own language.

I'm native Italian and familiar with few European languages. Currently I'm living in France and beforehand in few other European countries.

Your explanation of the English language usage corresponds to what I've learned and experienced on a daily basis. Anyway, I'm not a native English speaker, so I'm just conveying my experience here.

You're also correct in stating that every noun in Italian, French and Spanish are gendered and so are their relative articles which are also mandatory.

Interesting enough, the genders are often inverted among differences romance languages. What is masculine in Italian may well be feminin in Spanish or French and likewise.

Unfortunately, I've witnessed few occasions when politicians tried to propose gender changes of few "sensitive words" according to the mood of the time. The result sounded so awkward and occasionally hilarious that was quickly forgotten and buried into oblivion.

Picotin Unfortunately, I've witnessed few occasions when politicians tried to propose gender changes of few "sensitive words" according to the mood of the time. The result sounded so awkward and occasionally hilarious that was quickly forgotten and buried into oblivion.

😄 Here in Denmark, back in the early 1980's, I believe, there was an attempt from the political left to create a neutral form meaning both "he" and "she". In Danish "he" is "han", and "she" is "hun". The proposed word was "høn" (which has a vowel sound not normally found in English). That created a lot of comic relief for a couple of months, and most probably today nobody even remembers it.

QuasiUnaFantasia Here in Denmark, back in the early 1980's, I believe, there was an attempt from the political left to create a neutral form meaning both "he" and "she".

We could use one of those in English. We only have "it" ... not to be used for people, only for inanimate objects for which gender does not exist in English.

I think there have been attempts to do so, but none has gained traction.

MacMacMac Exactly. They or them are plural terms. More than one. You can’t say “Where is Tim? They went to the store?’ I would ask, “who else accompanied Tim?”

CyberGene There are also legal complications with the gender notion and the choice. For example here in Bulgaria the retirement age for women is lower than for men.

So you are still discriminating against women ending their career prematurely increasing the pay gap?

Deleted
Well, I’m also wondering why that is. I’ll have to research it. But from a statistical point of view women live longer than men (here and I guess everywhere) and it’s odd why they would retire earlier. Not sure who decided it and why.

Deleted So you are still discriminating against women ending their career prematurely increasing the pay gap?

When you say "you" are discriminating, are you implying that CG is somehow responsible for the law in Bulgaria?
I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
Rather "they" are responsible ... (whoever "they" are). 🙂

MacMacMac Do you know someone who uses the proper words? If so, HE is right.

That would be my preference too, however you are making various assumptions. For example, there are some people who do not recognize themselves as either male or female and they like to be addressed with a non-gender specific way. My preference would have been that they invented a new word for that, but instead they picked the singular they (pardon the pun).

This may all sound silly in this casual conversation, but it is all serious stuff. My employer offers "pronoun training" and one can get in troubles for being disrespectful if not outright harassing others when using the wrong pronoun after being asked to do otherwise. So please excuse people who use the singular "they" in this forum. Or report them to the good ole grammar police after the moderator will institute it 🤣

Good for you that you retired!

MacMacMac When you say "you" are discriminating, are you implying that CG is somehow responsible for the law in Bulgaria?

That's the plural you which includes any citizen with the right to vote obviously. ;-)

Tim went to the market. He bought stuff.

Mary went to the market. She bought stuff.

Someone went to the market. They bought stuff.

"They" has been used this way since the 1300s.

"He" has also been used for indeterminate gender, as well as the recent "he/she".

An Old English speaker would probably be horrified to hear inanimate objects referred to as "it" in the modern language, ignoring the grammatical gender of nouns (as they knew it). As for ditching cases…

Of course a lot of this has to do with incompatibilities in Germanic and French grammatical systems. That's why English has such simple grammar, but a huge vocabulary and all kinds of spellings.

The sociopolitical and linguistic arguments really don't have anything to do with each other.

CyberGene

In Italy also the retirement age is different among genders. In France, Belgium and the Netherlands not AFAIK.

The Italian government (They 😉) still pays penalties to the European Commission on annual basis because of the different treatment.

I believe the reason being that women should be rewarded for the time spent caring for the family. A burden still largely on the female parents unfortunately.

Paradoxically, women are "rewarded" when their children are already grown adult and no longer relying on the parents, but not helped with some other forms of support on their earlier years, when they are actually child caring and often forced to gave up their careers. Go figure…

Johnstaf

Johnstaf Of course a lot of this has to do with incompatibilities in Germanic and French grammatical systems. That's why English has such simple grammar, but a huge vocabulary and all kinds of spellings.

The sociopolitical and linguistic arguments really don't have anything to

That's a very good point. I didn't known about such usage of "They" in classical English.