Cybrid - a DIY MIDI controller with grand piano action

CyberGene Thank you very much! Yes, I understand the point haha, but for me this is very helpful… ;-)

HZPiano Hmm that is interesting. What you say is not realy what I need (because sometimes the carillonneur makes just very little movement with the key (only like 1cm up and then again press the key down to hit the bell). So de measurement of the movement has to be very small, thats why I think sensors like the CNY70 would be very suitable.

Thanks for the help and I will keep you posted!

AlexanderBunt only like 1cm up and then again press the key down to hit the bell

Hello,

Hmmm. Thinking about an actual carillon, I started to suspect that while writing.

Essentially, that is why in digital pianos 3 sensors instead of two, or even optical/continuous sensors are in vogue. And you'll need what is called analogue inputs on any microcontrollers you'd select for your project.

There, @CyberGene 's and @RIP 's project sure will give you lots of great clues.

Cheers and happy idea development,

HZ

CyberGene It's a pitty, but I can't get my sensor working. When I check my serial monitor, it only puts out '1 0', which (I think) is a result of a malfunctioning ciruit, or false components. See the the two pictures below for my circuit.

I see I made a mistake with the wiring for the sensor (blue and white wire not on the same line), but I fixed that and it didn't solve the problem…

You might get some ideas from the Pipe organ community. There are sellers of premade hardware although I don't know how much would be applicable.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180201185251/http://www.pykett.org.uk/completed_work.htm
https://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewforum.php?f=15
https://organforum.com/forums/

n-player Yeah maybe, but isn't this all without velocity?

HZPiano that is why in digital pianos 3 sensors instead of two

Is that for calculating velocity, even when the key has not been fully released?

AlexanderBunt When I have more time I will try to check your circuitry, I found one image of an earlier prototype with Arduino instead of Teensy which might be helpful for the wiring:

Also, I remember with the Teensy there were some stuff you had to enable in the Teensyduino for it to work properly, maybe the serial communication needs a specific configuration?

BTW, do your potentiometers have three connectors on the other side (not visible in the picture)? Because I see they have three on the visible side and you use only the middle one. Mine have two connectors on the left and one (middle) on the right.

AlexanderBunt Exactly that.

(And, in a well implemented (virtual) piano, this makes restriking the 'string' possible without it being dampened first. Raising the key to the full-up position also means the damper is then fully back on the string).

Cheers,

HZ

AlexanderBunt There may be sensors and upstream controllers that have velocity for broader applications.

CyberGene Yeah, three on one side and two on the other side… can that be a problem?

EDIT: Hm I thing there is the problem. I used Rotary Encoders… that's not the way how its is meant to be, I think…

I just bought a few 10kΩ cermet potmeters, which will arrive after the weekend, so I will try again then. Like I said before… I am just starting in this 'world'… ;-)

AlexanderBunt Rotary Encoders

Ah! There's your culprit.

Cheers and a happy learning curve,

HZ

HZPiano Thank you! There will be many moments of learning during this project, I think. But that's a good thing!

HZPiano And, in a well implemented (virtual) piano, this makes restriking the 'string' possible without it being dampened first.

Yeah I understand that part, but on a carillon, there are no dampeners. Do I still need three 'measure points', or just two?

AlexanderBunt Three sensors (with strategic placement in the key travel to allow the restrike without having to go all the way back to the top, and still have velocity information between the en-route and lower sensors) at least.

Or have optical/magnetic position sensors which, with nifty programming, can do a lot more nuanced things than "just" three sensors. But there, my insights are theoretical rather than practical, but some great people here know a lot more about that.

Cheers and best,

HZ

@AlexanderBunt Ah, doing a carillon is an interestingly different technical challenge.

Some of the key differences I see from doing a piano:

1. Physically quite a bit larger per-note. Both the overall structure, and the individual keys. You have space to put things wherever you want, and to make keys that feel right you're going to end up with long, thick pieces of wood.
2. You have fewer notes; presumably a max of 77, that being the largest real carillon?
3. Your keys only do one interesting thing; they trigger the mechanism which strikes the bell. They don't then dampen it later. Right?
4. Everything is made from scratch; you're not interested in pulling unused carillon consoles out and converting them?

But you still need to measure the instantaneous velocity as the key passes some triggering point?

I don't think using optical reflectance to measure distance is at all appropriate for you. That'll be a pain, and there's no reason you need to constrain yourself with physically small sensors.

My initial thoughts for you would be to use rotary encoders that can attach to existing shafts, like these https://www.cuidevices.com/catalog/motion/rotary-encoders and then measure the angular velocity at the shaft. You'll get clean values which directly correspond to physical motion you can understand. They're expensive, probably starting at $20/ea, likely more with limited availability of everything these days. But it might be possible to connect all the ones you'd need to a single sufficiently powerful microcontroller. That'd make your life quite a bit easier. But some design work, reviewing the interfaces available on those encoders, would be necessary.

Similarly, you could adapt some sort of fine-resolution rotary encoder like you already accidentally purchased to the task.

I'd shy away from potentiometers, if nothing else because you'd need to get a huge number of ADC channels and that is more of a pain in the ass than the casual observer realizes.

You could also apply optical reflectance sensors as they were originally intended to be used. Point one at the side of every key, and put a strip of alternating black and white lines on the key, such that as the key moves the sensor will swing between its minimum and maximum outputs. That'll get you a pulse train proportional to speed. You'd need a tiny bit of clean up on the signal and then it could go straight into a microcontroller. You could almost certainly get away with feeding 77 such signals into a single sufficiently powerful controller.

JayKominek So enough to think about…

To be clear: I don't have to build the console by myself. I bought a practice console with no bells attached, so I only need to do the electronics… And also, I just have 52 keys I think. That's making things easier.

I like the last idea you got. I think there is enough space to do this. So for my concern: you mean putting a CNY70 for example at the side of a key, and then a strip of (for example 2 black and 2 white) stipes on the side of the key. Then measure the time between the sensor switching from black(far) to white(close).

I think there is also a sensor needed which registers that the key 'hits' the bell, to give the 'note on' signal. That combined with the velocity of the sensor at the side of the key will be a solution maybe. But then, you need a double of inputs (104)… and thats too much for a regular board.

And what do you think about pressure sensors, like the FSR402? My concern with these things are that they won't last long, cince there are many hits on them. But maybe this will work very nice; No need to worry about travel distance from the key here…

A last thing to keep in mind: the amount of keys that is pressed at the same time is not so big as in a piano or organ. Maybe like 5 keys at the same time max. But the reaction speed needs to be very quick.

Would like to hear your ideas on these things!

RIP (I asked estimate to about 10 different companies/technicians and all gave similar price range and similar explanations at my balking)

6k$ ?

MrGr Del Vento (I asked estimate to about 10 different companies/technicians and all gave similar price range and similar explanations at my balking)

6k$ ?

Are you asking me the price range? If so, yes, you got it right, that was in right the range.