pianoteq sympathetic resonances

kawafanboi since that's not what shows up on the counter in the software, i'm trying to understand how the polyphony in pianoteq is defined.

Oh, I see. I'm not a PTQ expert - just a technical observer. I bet that PTQ counts polyphony as the number of keys that can be depressed at the same time, or the MIDI note numbers that can be active. Thus, PTQ and sampled instruments possibly count polyphony differently (IMO). PTQ has obviously created a sophisticated sine wave convolution engine, and every key that you press triggers a large convolution of sine waves yet probably counts as 1 note of polyphony. When multi notes are played, the engine probably doesn't count the SR as more polyphony.

Whereas my sampled SR counts each sine wave as an added note. This is why I had to up the polyphony in Kontakt to 1000.

dore_m

Wrong you can get Sympathetic Resonance, with midi rules in Chained plug mode, as Pianoteq have silent Key detection, just set velocity at 0.

See 🇦

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=10252

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9AVJ6kthsE

I use Pianoteq 8 to have Sympathetic Resonance for my magical D-274 VSL Synchron (one of the best sampled library)

OlivierW Which part am I wrong about? Is it that you can side chain MIDI notes so that PTQ can do SR on only open strings?

dore_m

Yes, we can side chain midi notes so that PTQ do only SR.

In logic 10, in other daw i don't know 🙂

Do you know what side chaining is?

Its works , and it's magical. VSL Audio is routed in SSR PTQ engine, thanks to SIDE CHAIN AUDIO, and midi in Pianoteq at velocity 0 trigger SSR rules between keys, without play PTQ internal Piano preset.

it's work…

Have a nice day 🙂

Regards,

Olivier

dore_m

OlivierW IMHO it works ok but given the final audio = original audio from sampled piano + resonance from PTQ instrument excited by the audio of the Sampled VST , it only gives a pseudo realistic final sound when the 2 pianos are similar so for a Steinway D the result is fine . If you use Garritan CFX , it starts to be already unrealistic as you mixing the audio of a 9” piano with a 6” one ( YC5) so the final sound doesn’t really exist in reality . Having said that being unrealistic is not necessarily a negative as the resulting sound could be quite nice . I have done some testing on my own with Garritan CFX Grand and even though the sound was pleasant, I ended up preferring both the sound of Garritan on its own or PTQ YC5 on its own as well , I was not fully convinced by the mix as it sounded too much like an FX plugin to me as opposed to a native sound either sampled or modelled . But very interesting in cases technically.

Joannchr Yes, but much better than VSL, that have a bug/fake Sympayhetic resonance, and just sustain samples without repedalling. With Pianoteq 8 i have the real behaviour of Resonances like my real Grand Piano (i've a Grand Piano). With VSL Synchron player : fake sustain behaviour and no Sympathetic resonance, and Releases unreal.

It sound very nice….. with Pianoteq 8 🙂

Garitan CFX : the overtones (between keys) / SSR engines doesn't use samples, it's a modeling Aria algo like Pianoteq.

I don't have the idea to use this soluce with Garritan CFX (because it has already an optional modeled overtones engine in Aria player). Only for my magical VSL Synchron D-274

So…

I think I understand how it works and I'm sure it's fine for many people. I just don't think I was wrong about how side chaining can only trigger body resonance/undamped pedal down SR and not particular string resonance without midi data. There are SRs in ptq that are triggered by midi, which cannot be triggered by side chain, and is done by direct midi input. You can not trigger an SR combination of keys without midi data and side chaining doesn't involve midi at all.

That's why I broke it down into two categories of SR. Audio triggered (side chained) and midi triggered (key combo). Ptq does both yes, but side chaining cannot trigger both types.

Ok, I'm going to eat my words. I did try it and it works - I swear I did this months ago and it didn't work, but I guess I'm mistaken. My test showed that the side channel (which still does not contain midi) does indeed induce key combination SR. I did the silent key trick, and I got the correct harmonics and there was no MIDI data going to PTQ at all.

It must mean that PTQ is finding the fundamental key frequencies (FFT), comparing them, and then issuing sine wave convolution. A trick that is beyond my pay grade.

dore_m Do you know what side chaining is?

exactly the same as having a side-girl,

dore_m does your VSL know you're having an affair with pianoteq on the side ? 🤓

dore_m I did the silent key trick, and I got the correct harmonics and there was no MIDI data going to PTQ at all.

How can ptq detect fundamental harmonics of a silent note? There is no such thing as "silent frequencies"... Some midi information is shared for sure.

vagfilm How can ptq detect fundamental harmonics of a silent note? There is no such thing as "silent frequencies"... Some midi information is shared for sure.

I confuse myself. possibly I was using a input audio (I used Maverick) as an input, and it's not purely silent. I'll have to check again. You're right - that would be impossible without detecting the fundamental frequency of the silent note.

I've done a full 360 on this one.

1. Sidechaining does not include MIDI data, only audio data
2. Using PTQ via sidechaining does not yield selective open string resonance (Pedal up)
3. Triggering PTQ using MIDI DOES yield selective open string resonance (pedal up)
4. Selective open string resonance absolutely needs MIDI data to detect the open string, especially when there is a "silent key".

I made a dumb mistake in my test - I used NI Maverick as my test subject, and it supports selective open string resonance by default, so the reso that I heard was coming from Maverick and not PTQ. PTQ indeed can only support body resonance, aka pedal down, while sidechaining. If you want selective open string resonance, you MUST send MIDI to it - or in a DAW, you must activate the track and actively send MIDI to it (which is not side chaining).

OlivierW Glad you enjoy it with VSL , which I didn't test as I don't have it . Only had a test version that expired. Cheers and happy playing with the D-274 !

dore_m

Yuu are right.

But what is the problem ? Side Chain AUDIO + rules via MIDI ?

It works like a charm in a daw ( i've full SSR, thanks midi, and i set the Pianoteq midi velocity at 0 to 0 (i've the SSR midi rules without the main PTQ sound, and it works very nice).

I've compared with my Real Grand Piano. Very very fine and real.

Regards,

Olivier

vagfilm

Because silent note in Pianoteq (key down / undampered key ) send midi velocity value at 0 with Note on. (you can set your own MIDI value, 0, 1 ,2 ….)

So it's work, and it's all, behave like my real Schimmel or Steinway… like YAMAHA VRM. (and better than VRM, in VRM overtones decay is to fast)

Regards,

Olivier

A better explaination here

OlivierW Yuu are right.

But what is the problem ? Side Chain AUDIO + rules via MIDI ?

It works like a charm in a daw ( i've full SSR, thanks midi, and i set the Pianoteq midi velocity at 0 to 0 (i've the SSR midi rules without the main PTQ sound, and it works very nice).

I've compared with my Real Grand Piano. Very very fine and real.

It's not a problem, I just think we have a misunderstanding and differing viewpoints. Probably the thing that is important to you is that people understand how good VSL + PTQ resonance is, and you're probably right - its very nice. But the thing that is important to me is that understand how it works, because I'm a guy that actually makes sample libraries.

When you wrote that I was wrong, I needed proof, then went to into a spiral of misinterpreting how PTQ actually works. Thanks to @vagfilm , I came back to my senses and still don't see any proof that my technical analysis was wrong in the first place. You might find the number of engineers and scientists on this forum take the technical aspects of these libraries pretty seriously - at least I do.

And yes, you are correct, using PTQ and VSL together (but directly without side chaining) can be a great combination. In my opinion, PTQ's sidechaining feature is a half-solution - you do need to trigger via midi, which means creating a parallel track to get the entire effect and means that the sidechaining isn't even necessary in the first place.

OlivierW But what is the problem ? Side Chain AUDIO + rules via MIDI ?

Same thing here: absolutely no problem... Sharing midi data between instruments is the correct and only complete way to add complex SR to a VST that lacks it... As far as I remember, that idea was already floated a long time ago in the PTQ forums, and Modartt finally acted upon it.

To some extent, what @dore_m put into his SR Kontakt scripts is basically the same approach (using midi alone to know the status of the keys and creating "universal" SR that is overlayed on the samples).

So, I was not criticizing PTQ or doubting the effectiveness of the approach. I was simply clarifying that in order to have SR generated by undampened strings (silent keys) some midi information is needed: PTQ cannot guess the sound of silence.