pianoteq sympathetic resonances

I think we discussed this before. In a real piano, there are many sources of vibration, primarily the open strings and the duplex scaling. If the dampers are down, the strings are damped (and not open) and not allowed to vibrate much, if at all. If you press the damper pedal, the dampers go up and all strings are available for vibration, either by being struck or sympathetic vibration. For a sample library, there are pedal up samples - the dampers are all down except for the keys that are played. The SR in this scenario include the main string that vibrates and the duplex scale SR, which are picked up by the recording. Additional SR also occurs because other strings are undamped (by multiple strings being played at the same time) must be modeled because you can't record all of these combinations.

For pedal down samples, all strings are available to sympathetically vibrate. So when a recording is made with one struck note, All of the possible SR is already recorded. Key combinations don't matter because all strings can vibrate and no selectivity is necessary.

Anyway, PTQ models both. I'm pretty sure that the pedal up SR is modeled much like mine, and the pedal down "body resonance" is what everyone on the forums talk about as they are a group of harmonics that are excited because of the input frequencies. This body resonance is unnecessary with sampled instruments, and layering PTQ on a sampled instrument to enhance this effect maybe is nice, but as I have said before, hyper -real and not realistic. The sample recording already picks up all of the SR caused when the pedal is down.

I think the difference this time is that PTQ now allows an input signal to "excite" the body resonance engine.

I took the bait @RIP 🙂

i don't understand how pianoteq actually does the sympathetic based on their videos / literature, is it a separate layer ? if so that's still unrealistic no ?

i feel like if the sympathetic was actually done right, we should hear that distinct khennngh dissonance noise, which is missing on all digi including pianoteq.

i don't miss it personally, but that's just how i understand it.

dore_m I think we discussed this before.

We did, but it sounded like they changed something or discovered something new. At least to this casual observer with just a casual interest in what these things do, but does not want to engage in active discussion (let alone implementation) of them.

dore_m I took the bait

It was not a bait 🤣 it was a "perhaps there still something more that you can learn from these experiments".

kawafanboi i feel like if the sympathetic was actually done right, we should hear that distinct khennngh dissonance noise, which is missing on all digi including pianoteq.

As far as I am concerned, pianoteq does this right. It does other thing wrong (or not perfect, depending on which camp you are on), especially the timbre

Has something changed since the release of the version 8 few month ago?

RIP

As far as I am concerned, pianoteq does this right. It does other thing wrong (or not perfect, depending on which camp you are on), especially the timbre

del vento, how does it work in pianoteq, does the 1 note, affect all the other notes or do they play the 1 note with effects, and then another layer of sympathetic on top of that like a separate track ?

I tried Pianoteq again last night as I was installing apps on my new Mac mini. Same results. Play it for a few minutes, close it out, probably won't open it again until I buy a new computer.

I'm not bashing Pianoteq. It just doesn't inspire me to play it. I wish it did because it's so economical in terms of its footprint and resource use.

God Bless,
David

David B

how's the m1 cpu utilization on pianoteq, what's the max thread supported, can it saturate all cores? 😃

Khuja Wangtishvili Has something changed since the release of the version 8 few month ago?

They have released a few updates but I haven't paid attention

kawafanboi del vento, how does it work in pianoteq, does the 1 note, affect all the other notes or do they play the 1 note with effects, and then another layer of sympathetic on top of that like a separate track ?

They claim that each note affects each other note in a combinatorial explosion of possibilities and that is one of the reason the people who like that virtual instrument are so excited about it, since it is basically never the same.

But that's all I know I am no expert in that by any stretch of the imagination

RIP

hrrrm. we should ask pianoteq to explain this more clearly.

the way i'd imagine 1 note affecting every other note, wouldn't that mean, it should be running 256 or max polyphony 100% of the time, yet, clearly it does not do that. 🙃

I'm pretty sure it's modeled as I described. Pedal down uses a resonance engine that takes input frequencies and simulates body resonance and pedal up uses midi keys to determine which frequencies to excite. It's clear to me because

1. The pedal up SR reacts to which keys are pressed. The result are specific SR frequencies excited that are related to the specific open strings that are given to the engine via midi note number.
2. You can side chain their plugin to access the body resonance engine. The input is audio, not midi. The result is a general sonic aura I call body resonance.

You can experiment with the demo as I did to see this. I draw these conclusions because I can't think of another way that they could conceive of doing this.

dore_m

if i'm reading you correctly, you mean that each note is its own 88 key polyphony ? and pianoteq counts that as 1 polyphony ?

kawafanboi Can you clarify what you mean? I'm not sure how you're getting to that conclusion.

dore_m Can you clarify what you mean? I'm not sure how you're getting to that conclusion.

my confusion is on how it's counted.

if we accept the way it's framed that pianoteq can excite all the notes on pedal down, that means it's at least 88 all the time even if a single key is pressed.

since that's not what shows up on the counter in the software, i'm trying to understand how the polyphony in pianoteq is defined.

kawafanboi since that's not what shows up on the counter in the software, i'm trying to understand how the polyphony in pianoteq is defined.

Oh, I see. I'm not a PTQ expert - just a technical observer. I bet that PTQ counts polyphony as the number of keys that can be depressed at the same time, or the MIDI note numbers that can be active. Thus, PTQ and sampled instruments possibly count polyphony differently (IMO). PTQ has obviously created a sophisticated sine wave convolution engine, and every key that you press triggers a large convolution of sine waves yet probably counts as 1 note of polyphony. When multi notes are played, the engine probably doesn't count the SR as more polyphony.

Whereas my sampled SR counts each sine wave as an added note. This is why I had to up the polyphony in Kontakt to 1000.

dore_m

Wrong you can get Sympathetic Resonance, with midi rules in Chained plug mode, as Pianoteq have silent Key detection, just set velocity at 0.

See 🇦

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=10252

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9AVJ6kthsE

I use Pianoteq 8 to have Sympathetic Resonance for my magical D-274 VSL Synchron (one of the best sampled library)

OlivierW Which part am I wrong about? Is it that you can side chain MIDI notes so that PTQ can do SR on only open strings?

dore_m

Yes, we can side chain midi notes so that PTQ do only SR.

In logic 10, in other daw i don't know 🙂

Do you know what side chaining is?

Its works , and it's magical. VSL Audio is routed in SSR PTQ engine, thanks to SIDE CHAIN AUDIO, and midi in Pianoteq at velocity 0 trigger SSR rules between keys, without play PTQ internal Piano preset.

it's work…

Have a nice day 🙂

Regards,

Olivier

dore_m

OlivierW IMHO it works ok but given the final audio = original audio from sampled piano + resonance from PTQ instrument excited by the audio of the Sampled VST , it only gives a pseudo realistic final sound when the 2 pianos are similar so for a Steinway D the result is fine . If you use Garritan CFX , it starts to be already unrealistic as you mixing the audio of a 9” piano with a 6” one ( YC5) so the final sound doesn’t really exist in reality . Having said that being unrealistic is not necessarily a negative as the resulting sound could be quite nice . I have done some testing on my own with Garritan CFX Grand and even though the sound was pleasant, I ended up preferring both the sound of Garritan on its own or PTQ YC5 on its own as well , I was not fully convinced by the mix as it sounded too much like an FX plugin to me as opposed to a native sound either sampled or modelled . But very interesting in cases technically.