Little experiment

Just to be sure I'm clear, this is what I think:

• some people may not care about such "exact" timing, by either not even realizing they exist, or realizing it but having learn (or feel like it's good to) ignore them
• some people may care greatly about such "exact" timing, either wanting it to be perfectly on time (like @navindra seems to do) or wanting it "off" as @dore_m does (and to a less degree many others including myself)

I don't think there's a good or right here, just an observation.

FWIW my daughter plays in various orchestras and the other day she played in a pretty big one in which I estimated (from the public) her distance from the timpani being about 10m. At 300m/s that's about 30ms. She did say that the timpani was playing a bit late, whereas I (from the audience) thought they were perfectly on time 😃

I voted for both being equally good.

RIP I don't know if this is a reasonable claim or not (within human limits), but I definitely felt and feel the difference in timing between the two samples and #1 remains my preference even after the explanation. #2 gives me the shivers, for whatever reason.

I would listen to some different real life examples of exact / off timing before definitively pronouncing that I prefer one over the other.

I noticed the difference ... but if the stated difference (delay vs. no delay) were not given then I would not be able to tell you what the difference was.

RIP FWIW my daughter plays in various orchestras and the other day she played in a pretty big one in which I estimated (from the public) her distance from the timpani being about 10m. At 300m/s that's about 30ms. She did say that the timpani was playing a bit late, whereas I (from the audience) thought they were perfectly on time

You think that's far, in our drum and bugle corps, we were often 30-35 yards away from the conductor, and 70 yards away from the furthest musician on the field. You have to play in time by looking at the conductor and not listening sometimes.

RIP some people may not care about such "exact" timing

RIP some people may care greatly about such "exact" timing

I liked clip #2 the best as described before.

But listening to various music in real life, I like both approaches depending on the piece, musicians, instruments used, general mood, my mood, and so on.

Sometimes highly exact, tight timing is super powerful and makes a piece come across very, again, powerfully. Which can be utterly enjoyable and engaging.

Some other times a bit of laid back groove can add a fitting atmosphere and rather enjoyable engagement and feelings of joy (or other emotion) in quite another way.

Both are ways of expressing music. Real, powerful music comes from deeply within, and thrives on authentic expression. Whichever way. Music (and all other kinds of art), luckily, isn't an exact science.

Which doesn't mean li'l experiments like this aren't fun and educational!

Cheers and happy discoveries,

HZ

I’ve heard pipe organ players learn to cope with hearing the sound lagging behind their playing too.

CyberGene

i initially felt the digital piano actually responds a little too fast and too consistently, it was throwing me off alot when i first bought my 520. it made everything easier to play and i didn't have to worry about pressing the key all the way down, so it was very relaxing, it almost felt like the piano was predicting my playing or playing on its own, because there's now such a large timing window between inputs that is virtually impossible to screw up.

Joannchr actually jazz is always in time! There no rubaton in jazz! And accents are on 2 and 4 🙂

Khuja Wangtishvili The beginning of each beat is on perfect time yes, but the 1/8 notes are played 'like' triplets and are neither on time , nor conform to classical notation. This coupled with the specific accentuation to emphasise the backbeat is what is disconcerting for a classical musician . In fact the triplet notation is just an approximation as the swing cannot really be written with classical notation, according to jazz purists. Indeed it has nothing to do with rubato , given with a rubato it is a borrow/pay approach with time where you choose to drag certain notes but accelerate other notes so the duration of an entire bar stay constant, so it is more like changing the tempo several times in the same bar which is obviously completely different.

Joannchr yes, it's all of course, i just wrote it as man6 classical trained musicians do not knot it. I a
Started learning jazz few months ago and I have to say it's like starting g to learning music again, but it help so much and I as musian made a big step forward

Khuja Wangtishvili that’s exactly the way I feel when I attempt to play jazz , a different language which is not your mother tongue . Happy playing and swinging ! Cheers 👋

Joannchr kapelli that’s exactly the way I feel when I attempt to play jazz , a different language which is not your mother tongue . Happy playing and swinging ! Cheers 👋

I learned classical second, and jazz first. Sadly both feel like something that is not my mothertongue 🙁

Take a listen to this track... This is Maria Bethania singing a Jobim/Vinicius composition. Any clue of who is playing the piano? Classical or jazz background? Answer tomorrow... (if anyone is interested to know😊)

https://youtu.be/8jjT9C0_oW4

vagfilm Beautiful song with great lyrics, close to the great music I can hear at night in some of Lisbon jazz clubs. Difficult to tell the background of the pianist , but I would say jazz/bossa nova background with some influence from impressionist music as some chords sound like 'ravel' type of chords.

dore_m Del Vento FWIW my daughter plays in various orchestras and the other day she played in a pretty big one in which I estimated (from the public) her distance from the timpani being about 10m. At 300m/s that's about 30ms. She did say that the timpani was playing a bit late, whereas I (from the audience) thought they were perfectly on time

You think that's far, in our drum and bugle corps, we were often 30-35 yards away from the conductor, and 70 yards away from the furthest musician on the field. You have to play in time by looking at the conductor and not listening sometimes.

This commentary re: Del Vento’s experiment reminds me of a video i saw several years ago that was an experiment highlighting the importance of the conductor for relatively large ensemble groups. I think part of the reason was because many lay people see the conductor as somebody who is there mainly for show / showmanship - to dramatically wave their hands & arms and sway their body parts to & frio while conducting the ensemble. There were at least 2 caveats (that i remember) at the beginning of the experiment: 1) none of the players knew what music/song they were to play and 2) they were instructed simply to play what they interpreted from watching the conductor. I seem to recall each player was required to wear ear plugs but i may be mistaken. At the beginning, they sounded like the typical screeching, dissonant beginners marching band with various instruments out of tune, but gradually came in to tune & harmony with the various sections playing in perfect time, while effectively flying blind (deaf) as the expression goes.

Clip 1:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AyncNqyKe7I

Clip 2:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iqjz42ackGU

Clip 2.2

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5QrE5kyrJrc

Khuja Wangtishvili actually jazz is always in time! There no rubaton in jazz! And accents are on 2 and 4

Actually that is much too rigid. It never appealed to me when a bass player or drummer is famed for their special "time"
playing just a mu off the beat. While there are many variants of jazz, swing is just not explained with the ancient theory crutch of triples. As a swing dancer i too often had to explain what was missing in a music, and i used to say something like "an inspring playfullness of rhythm over the pulse". Now i know Louis Armstrong coined it much better:

Swing (he said jazz) does not exist until there is conflict in rhythm.

And yes, it really swings most when a rhythm sometimes floats over the beat freely but convincing BUT always stays in connection.

-Rhodes4

Rhodes74 it really swings most when a rhythm sometimes floats over the beat freely but convincing BUT always stays in connection.

Very nice way to say it!

vagfilm

Yesterday I posted a YT video of the brazilian singer Maria Bethania track that is only voice plus piano; although the piano part is not jazz, it is jazzy and quite metronome-free. The pianist? None other than Maria João Pires. As far as I know, this is her only recording of non classical music (apart from a fado CD, but in that case she was playing printed sheetmusic from a contemporary composer; in this case she has composed the piano arrangement, at least partially according what is printed in the CD sleeve). So, it is possible to have a Deutsche Gramophone pianist playing without a metronome.

"Del Vento"#p16193 I used you guys as guinea pigs

We are not alone. Innocent NPR listeners were utilized after being trapped with big claims:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/18/1139783203/what-makes-songs-swing-physicists-unravel-jazz-mystery

Real musicians bring in a somewhat wider approach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhkPyB4gO9U

-Rhodes74