VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial

navindra I absolutely admire both. I would love a piano that sounds like yours and I would love to be able to arrange and play these chords the way you do.

You could always purchase the VSL BI and use my preset. 😀 Also, you could purchase the Duane Shinn Praise and Gospel Course and the Greg Howlett Inspirational Improvisation Course. That's where I've been getting my ideas from.

navindra Of the very few lucky owners of an actual BI, how many would be able to produce a recording that sounds like yours? I don't think very many could do that unless they captured the MIDI and rendered it with the VSL BI library.

Yeah, the VSL BI is as close as I'll ever get to the real thing. I'm glad they've been improving their software. The velocity curve editor and smooth attack feature is really helpful in getting the samples/software to work well with different controllers.

God Bless,
David

David B Thank you for sharing your presets, that's a nice touch indeed.

The Bösendorfer Imperial is a painful omission in Pianoteq, for sure. I can switch from a majestic Ant Petrof to my favorite NY Steinway D concert grand at a touch... yet no Bösendorfer Imperial model. I hope Modartt comes out with one soon.

VSL is still a little out of reach for me with the Vienna Key and Mac/PC requirements, but perhaps when they eliminate the USB key thing, I may reconsider hooking up a laptop to the piano.

I'm not back on a regular piano practice schedule. I think I will resume lessons in a few weeks and pick up from Alfred's again. I don't like that book but I still have a lot to learn there in terms of the swing rhythms, syncopation, blues, and such.

In the meantime, I've started going through Supersonics Piano, and I'm quite enjoying that, along with reworking some old pieces. I do have a gap in terms of improvisation and I'll need to strategize there. I was thinking something more like the Improvise for Real method if I can't get serious with Play Piano Fluently

navindra I've started going through Supersonics Piano, and I'm quite enjoying that, along with reworking some old pieces. I do have a gap in terms of improvisation and I'll need to strategize there. I was thinking something more like the Improvise for Real method if I can't get serious with Play Piano Fluently

If you have the time, short reviews of those methods/courses would be interesting. It's more relevant having personal opinions on how something worked (or not) for you, than so called "pros" reviews that may have agendas.

David B For now it does, but sometime this year they are switching to iLok which will have the option of activating the license via a constant internet connection. It's really a bummer that they are not going the machine activation route where you only need to connect to the internet once to activate the license.

So you'll have three options.

Constant internet connection to activate and use license.
iLok dongle to activate and use license.
Keep using the current eLicenser dongle until it's not supported anymore. No idea how long eLicenser will be supported after the switch to iLok, but there is supposed to be considerable overlap.

This is sad news. I like the sound of the VSL pianos, but, am not going to accept permanent, continuous internet manacles on my piano computer. Nor the dongle. That is just out of the question. This seems a far cry from the promise of 1.5 years ago of getting rid of the dongle or going to iLok, or however they stated their intention when pressed back then.

I hope VSL reconsiders, or, that VI Labs comes out with some new pianos, hopefully a well done Bosendorfer Imperial. In the mean time, I'll just keep playing my Garritan CFX and Pianoteq anywhere electricity is available.

I wonder if VSL has some ‘exclusivity’ deal with Bosendorfer (owned by Yamaha of all things); otherwise, why don’t we see a Bosendorfer VST out there from the big guns (Pianoteq, VI Labs, etc)?

It seems like Bosendorfer is very popular amongst VST fans, yet Pianoteq will model an obscure, never-heard-of brand, yet not a Bosendorfer!

I’m writing them an angry letter right now…..

Dear Pianoteq:

Where’s my effing Bosendorfer?

Keep up the good work,

Pete XIV!

Ralphiano This is sad news. I like the sound of the VSL pianos, but, am not going to accept permanent, continuous internet manacles on my piano computer. Nor the dongle. That is just out of the question. This seems a far cry from the promise of 1.5 years ago of getting rid of the dongle or going to iLok, or however they stated their intention when pressed back then.

I hope VSL reconsiders, or, that VI Labs comes out with some new pianos

Fully agree with all of this!

Cheers and happy playing of customer-friendly VSTis,

HZ

I'm not convinced what Pianoteq do with their models is really emulating the pianos they mention. I believe they just pay the corresponding piano company to use their brand and then tweak their generic model to fit the stereotypes, like e.g. Yamaha is "bright and punchy for jazz", Steinway is "dark and soft for classical", etc. You don't believe they get a brand new Steinway which they dissect to measure or burn to make a spectral analysis of the lacquer, do you? 🤣 We've hypothesized that they take audio samples of a piano and the synthesis method of Pianoteq is actually a clever compression that does some Furrier stuff and sums sine waves and coefficients and whatnot (as described in their old patent) but they have been slippery and said that's not the case anymore. So what is it now? Well, as I said, they just have some generic synthetic engine that can be tweaked to be brighter, duller, etc., then they say: OK, we will call this one a Petrof since "Petrof" ends in "f" which in musical notation means forte, and we think this current tweaks sounds forte, let's pay them a few thousand dollars and see how it goes 😉 I'm just speculating of course. But prove me wrong!

CyberGene You don't believe they get a brand new Steinway which they dissect to measure or burn to make a spectral analysis of the lacquer, do you? 🤣

Yes, I do, CG!

Unless you’re saying they’re lying, are you?

Yes, they actually got a ‘used’ Steingraeber for a decent price; which they then dissected and further deconstructed all the way down to the smell and the lacquer!

Once they’re done, the piano in question is put up for sale; however, modartt now keeps the essence of that instrument in their secret vault (for further improvements).

CyberGene 😉 I'm just speculating of course. But prove me wrong!

I say we send some of our European members to the Modartt facilities in France for some deep espionage dumpster diving, to look for traces of the pianos they have burned. Only then will we know for sure.

Ralphiano I say we send some of our European members to the Modartt facilities in France for some deep espionage dumpster diving

I promote our dear @Frédéric L for that mission since he must be closer to those dumpsters and is the only one who can understand French. I tried to study French for some time and gave up. Has any of you tried to learn French? It's incomprehensible. You have something like beaucoup which is not short for beautiful cupcake. And everything is a variation on that theme.

Pete14 I wonder if VSL has some ‘exclusivity’ deal with Bosendorfer (owned by Yamaha of all things); otherwise, why don’t we see a Bosendorfer VST out there from the big guns (Pianoteq, VI Labs, etc)?

Perhaps Bosendorfer doesn't want its name sullied by the likes of Pianoteq?

CyberGene I tried to study French for some time and gave up. Has any of you tried to learn French? It's incomprehensible.

I started learning it quite young, though that was so long ago that my skills have diminished.

The fundamental language idioms are not unlike those of English, and the two languages share many words. Indeed, the Norman invasion instilled French into the English language. So I find it not so difficult to handle French.

The hardest part: verb conjugation. English has an utterly different way of handling verbs. For that reason French, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese are all difficult for an English speaker.

CyberGene 583km from here… But I guess the travel is not the hardest part. This depends of their security crew. If they are well organised, they use paper grinders for important papers before trowing them in a trash.

CyberGene One clue : one of their model is named Bechstein Digital Grand. They tried to emulate a Kontakt library. This does not imply calculating mechanical impedance or such thing. Then trying to match a sound by tweaking their model parameters seems the most probable way.

Pete14 I wonder if VSL has some ‘exclusivity’ deal with Bosendorfer (owned by Yamaha of all things); otherwise, why don’t we see a Bosendorfer VST out there from the big guns (Pianoteq, VI Labs, etc)?

Both the Ivory and Galaxy collections include Bösendorfers. I think Modartt may have trouble modelling the effect of the rim in Bösendorfers, because it is not layered like the other makes (as far as I know).

CyberGene I'm not convinced what Pianoteq do with their models is really emulating the pianos they mention

They ought to at least measure and use the various distances that distinguish the different models they simulated. If not, I would consider their alleged diversification dishonest. But I can't see how they would even be able to build their models without these data (unless they were guessing at them, but that would be silly, given how easy it is to take a tape measure and use it).

QuasiUnaFantasia They ought to at least measure and use the various distances that distinguish the different models they simulated.

Then can do something simple : measure how fast the sound is decayed, partial per partial. Identify multiple phases of the sound (prompt sound and aftersound)*. Identify beats. Then adjust the sound engine parameters to match these measures : no measure of the piano itself (distances, impedance…)

* See https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/motion.html

QuasiUnaFantasia Both the Ivory and Galaxy collections include Bösendorfers

Yes, but these -Ivory and Galaxy- are minor leagues and not the big guns 💪

I’m surprised they still hang in there, but who knows, with the right attitude and hard work they might make into the big leagues some day!🤣

Now, about this rim you talk about, I don’t think the king of VSTs (Pianoteq) would have any problem modeling it.

Pete14 Now, about this rim you talk about, I don’t think the king of VSTs (Pianoteq) would have any problem modeling it.

I don't think so either, as far as the mathematics is concerned, but with a solid rim the entire surface of the piano starts vibrating along with the soundboard (whereas with a laminated construction there should be less vibration of the piano surface), and this increases the amount of calculations considerably, which would probably necessitate beefier CPU's.

There are EWQL and UVI which have a Bösendorfer too. It is quite common !

QuasiUnaFantasia and this increases the amount of calculations considerably, which would probably necessitate beefier CPU's.

If they model the sound and not the piano itself, this would just mean different parameters (longer decay by example), but no more computation.

Hey, I'm French (was born there), but at this point have spent more than half my life in the good old US of A. But Moddart is near Toulouse and whenever I am in France (every 3-4 years or so), I tend to not go by there, although of course I have been to the "pink city", a lovely part of the country. While you're there, go to Bordeaux following the Garonne river, stopping as many times as you can among the various wineries! 🍷

Why do I answer in a thread about Pianoteq and Bosendorfer? I don't know: I still don't do VSTs at this point, so please resume your debate: don't mind me. 😅