Casio Privia vs Kawai ES120

josh_sounds

https://youtu.be/pUEaoQ49vao
for this specific genre, is kawai better? or should i go for this? it looks convincing, 😃
I hear deliveries for 120 is taking too long…
where i am, 110 is stll the top of the line , no 120 on display anywhere (3rd world problems, hahaha)…

kawafanboi

josh_sounds

either one josh, as you know kawaboi is an RHC action enthusiast. but he recognizes that the es120 is poorly priced.

MacMacMac

I don't have an opinion on either of these keyboards. But if you're inclined to make a judgment based on that video then I think you're making a mistake. Are you able to try these keyboards at a retailer?

josh_sounds

MacMacMac

no i have not…
i'm actually biased against any casio…
so just wondering if anyone has real world experience on this model, prolly can change my mind… something like that….

Joannchr

I haven’t played any of these keyboards but have played a lot of Kawai . I have a MP11 and a VPC1 at home and their action is top notch . I have tried 2 years ago the Casio S3000 at a friend’s place and I felt the action was flawed . Having said that they must have progressed since . But Yamaha and Kawai are the most reputable brands for digital pianos as long as you want to play piano only, which is not surprising given they actually make acoustic pianos . But that is of course a personal opinion not based on any playing on these 2 keyboards.

josh_sounds

Joannchr

thanks for sharing… that confirms what others say about casio actions… thanks a bunch!…
yeah, i don't think 2 years would make them a contender in key-action unless they borrow the tech like nord does!
the nord grand does have a kawai action.

Joannchr

I cannot tell as I haven’t played one since but the fact of the matter is that Yahama and Kawai have a massive number of piano tuners , acoustic piano action specialists are their disposal and have intellectual property which is not going to be surpassed any time soon . Having said that one has to admit that as new entrant , Casio has made a lot of progress since they entered that market .

ClothEaredNincompoop

Casio's progress since the PX-S3000 is releasing the PX-S3100 with the same action and a few models with bigger numbers (5000, 6000 and 7000) and price tags with an improved action that's still as compact as the original PX-S models.

Bellicapelli

Hi, i tried the casio vs. the es110 about a year ago, before Christmas, as i wanted to get me a second practice piano for my gf's flat. I recall finding the 110 better regarding action and sound, especially since at that point the kawai was pretty old and the casio almost new, so it was not much cheaper. Then one year passed, and this year i got me the es120. I'm not able anymore to compare the one year old memory of the casio with the 120 i am playing, but the es120 is absolutely perfect to me. But as a disclaimer, i must admit i became kind of a kawai-ist. I can consider other brands, but they somehow have to be substantially cheaper than my kawai reference point ( the casio might as well be now ). So i even considered a korg2. But then the Korg got pricier, and the new es120 got heavily discounted for Black Friday, so no contest to me.

CyberGene

I can’t get past the overly light actions of Kawai digital pianos, entry level or higher level. But I understand people that like these light actions though. There was one guy on the PW forums who is an avid promoter of the ES110 and ES120, named Jazz…something and he has expressed how he has some condition in his wrists and it’s only these two Kawai pianos that are very light as to not worsen his condition.

Bellicapelli

CyberGene

Hy Cybergene. Yes, the action is rather on the light side, compared to my old ca63, but then i can remember the casio's being comparatively heavy, especially around the "fallboard", so not in a particularly linear and predictable way, and i felt it could have taken a bit longer to adjust to. The problem is quite written about almost everywhere, but i thin it's pretty subjective. I think i could have easily adjusted to the casio's action, had the sound blown me away, but personally it didn't. Would still have considered it, had it been a bit cheaper.

P.s. so none on this forum has the es120 yet?

CyberGene

Bellicapelli I would always prefer a Kawai over a Casio anyway, so you did the right choice 👍🏻

I think the ES-110 is a great entry-level piano. Actions are very subjective thing and some pianists can complain about even the most expensive grand piano actions, while others would love them. Same with digital piano actions. I still believe digital piano actions are a huge compromise and there are two approaches of solving the inherent problem of them lacking real escapement:

Kawai: Use light hammers, so that the entire action feels light and minimizes the heavy pushback against the fingers. The disadvantage is the inertia is rather low and unrealistic and the touch response might not be suitable for samples obtained from huge grand pianos, because in reality if you put the equivalently light hammers in that huge grand, you wouldn't be able to so easily produce fortissimos. Hence, jumpy response on the Kawai digital pianos because they mapped the narrow force range of the light hammers to a wider dynamic response of a big grand piano.
Yamaha: Use heavy hammers, thus realistic inertia, realistic touch response (along with sample mapping) that corresponds to that of the grand the samples were obtained from. Disadvantage: the pushback against your fingers is too high, making the action feeling too heavy, with a heavy static weight, could be tiring to play, especially for people with wrist conditions.

I've seen many talented pianists praising and hating each of these approaches, so it's a matter of taste. I don't consider myself a very talented pianist, just an experienced amateur and through the years I've hesitated between the two approaches. Nowadays you would find me preferring the Yamaha one more. But ultimately, I kind of hate all digital piano actions and would only like real acoustic piano actions.

HZPiano

CyberGene But ultimately, I kind of hate all digital piano actions and would only like real acoustic piano actions.

A definite +1.

On my so-maniest trip this Tuesday to a decent piano dealer, I focused on a comparison between PHA-50 (90X), NWX (745) and GFC (49/59).

GFC felt the most natural, the most spontaneously following my playing intentions. So if I can manage a purchase, that will be my next action, hopefully sufficient for at least three to five years. While using VSTis (Modern U, perhaps Garritan CFX) with it, of course.

Just before leaving at closing time of the store, I played a Yamaha C3 for a bit. Lovely instrument. While such a real action is hugely preferable over anything digital, it reminded me the most of the GFC action in ease of playing and following my intentions.

Funnily, the NWX action, under my fingers, is more similar to the typical Yamaha upright actions (U-series, for instance) in playing experience.

Selecting an action that is personally satisfying is an art in itself, or so it seems.

Cheers and happy personal preferences,

MHirsch

CyberGene But ultimately, I kind of hate all digital piano actions and would only like real acoustic piano actions.

An emulation remains an emulation, no matter what.

CyberGene

HZPiano GFC felt the most natural, the most spontaneously following my playing intentions. So if I can manage a purchase, that will be my next action, hopefully sufficient for at least three to five years. While using VSTis (Modern U, perhaps Garritan CFX) with it, of course.

That’s actually important. My observations are related to piano actions when used with the internal piano sounds of the corresponding model. GFC is a fairly light action and thus would be very suitable to upright piano samples as from Modern U. Not so sure about Garritan CFX that has a huge dynamic range but you can try.

HZPiano

MHirsch We're obviously in sync, here! 😄

Bellicapelli

I agree on acoustic piano being preferrable. But then you know the usual problems leading to a digital as a feasible compromise. Money, space ecc

Austin_D

I hope KawaFanboi doesn't see this. Otherwise he'll come and tell you which keyboard action of the digital piano is the best in the universe. And also about how the keyboard actions of real acoustic instruments are a defunct anachronism, just like traditional pianism. )

kawafanboi

Austin_D

shot shot.. shot shot shot.. drift drift. drift drift drift..

hello Austin D.

kawaboi believes the largest difference here, as mentioned by cybergene is the difference in goals.

simulation, vs, unbound controller.

if we press a button, mario ninja jumps 5x his height, not accurate, but the game's still fun ?

so, we have to go back and ask, well, why "MUST" piano be built around a rigid framework to simulate acoustic piano. is that goal relevant to "more" or "less" players in the future, as we deviate further from acoustic (they're just not practical to own for modern customers, upkeep costs).

it's not that acoustic is bad, but when we make the comparison, for example , a light vs heavy action, we also need to ask, well are they GOOD AND BAD at certain things. people are allowed to choose. but in that discussion, we have to be cognizant that alot of old-use-cases are not so relevant today.

most of us do not get water from a well with a bucket and a rope, the well isn't bad, it's just not as practical as what we have now, water mains and pumps. 🤗

MacMacMac

Austin_D I think you've goaded him into returning here. 😦

Pete14

Calibration drift, I say!🤣

Del Vento

Pete14 One thing working against Casio…..is “Casio!” The branding/decal reminds us of cheap calculators and watches, and I wonder if they should consider changing their name altogether.

Isn't that what they have done with calling their pianos Privia? FWIW, I tried them (at the time when they were FX130 until FX160 if I remember the names correctly) and they were good for the price given my objective of being close to an acoustic piano. I found the ES110 (which I think was new at the time) slightly better but more-than-slightly more expensive. I found the ES7 (or was it ES8?) too bouncy to be likable and I discarded it immediately regardless of prices

kawafanboi kawaboi believes the largest difference here, as mentioned by cybergene is the difference in goals.

I guess that's the most important thing. Unfortunately, most people need to make their purchase choice before they have their goals clear, since they don't know what their musical journey will look like. Some people are even aware of that, and some other aren't, and both categories default to the "most similar to acoustic". As I did, but in my case it was a deliberate choice (after a couple of decades of non-velocity-sensitive synth action).