Upright piano choice

porco_rosso · 2022-06-21T12:34:12+00:00

Thanks! As there are IMO no other alternatives I purchased the Yamaha NU1X again. My only complaint with it was the "loud note" issue as you all can remember I think. Other than that - the real action, the pedals, the looks, the samples, the sound system and the audio interface and its implementation (gorgeous VST sound via speaker) - were excellent. That's the one tiny compromise I now am convinced I can live with. And as I learned EVERY digital piano has at least one major flaw (even the N1X that doesn't suffer from the loud note issue, but has a subpar sound system and a significant price increase compared to the N1X). The only Instruments that aren't compromises are the Yamaha/Kawai Silent Grands (ATX4/SH2) without the modified let-off compared to after-market silent systems, but they let you pay for that. 😉 Oh, but thats a story for an other thread.

MHirsch

CyberGene What could be so wrong?

Could have beens! 😃

porco_rosso

I had a bit time yesterday evening so I thought I will test some Schimmel and Sauter pianos. Unfortunately the dealer closed earlier yesterday, so I went to the Bechstein Centre. I had a wonderful time there. I liked most of the pianos, but I loved the Bechstein Academy 124 (Imposant), it was so clear, differentiated, transparent (!), warm and resonant. To me it really sounded more like a grand than a typical upright piano. But it's 19.900 €^1… 🙁 The W. Hoffmann T128 (11.500 €) was also good, but muddier and not so pristine in tone. The seller was also so super friendly, shared my love for Joe Hisaishi, had a very fine grasp for what I was looking tone-wise after a very short time and was an excellent pianist too. He played a Scriabin Etude on the A124 and honestly, it sounded a bit like a concert recording. The only thing I did not like 100 % at first is the very light touch on all Hoffmann and Bechstein instruments I played, but at the end of the session I already adjusted better to it.

Oh why are these pianos so expensive?

¹ I could rent the pianos for 12 months (299 €) - the rent would be taken into account if I purchase it - and then finance it over up to 72 months.

MHirsch

porco_rosso Oh why are these pianos so expensive?

Wait until you visit a Bösendorfer handler…

porco_rosso

Here a quick update: after playing dozens of pianos in several stores here some general impressions:

action-wise I prefer Japanese Yamaha- and Kawai actions over German Renner-actions of equally priced pianos (used german uprights from Grotrian-Steinweg, Ibach, Schimmel, Seiler, Sauter from the 80 - 2000s); they allow me for more nuanced playing - the piano will do what I intent to
but: a well regulated action of a well rebuilt quality old german (1900 - 1930) upright like C. Bechstein, Grotrian-Steinweg, August Förster or Blüthner (underdamped) can offer an even a better dynamic control at both dynamic extremes that resembles of grand pianos!
these older, often bigger pianos also have a more mature, orchestral sound; but they don't sound like what most of us are used to (Steinway, Yamaha); for "modern" pieces (songs, movie soundtracks) I prefer the brighter and cleaner sound of younger pianos, for classical and baroque I preferred the more lyrical and singing tone of old uprights
I realized that I don't have the budget for what I was looking touch- and tonewise and I don't want to finance it due to personal circumstances and the current situation of the world economy, the risk is not worth it
so… I purchased the VPC1 a third time and I hope that it's not broken this time

RIP

porco_rosso I purchased the VPC1 a third time and I hope that it's not broken this time

Best of luck with that and….. let me repeat yet again the suggestion of doing what I did!

Namely: keep looking "casually" at the used market, a jewel might show up sooner or later (it did for me, and that grand was for you, so things may repeat). Also, make friend with a good tuner/technician and see if a jewel shows up that is in poor state but can be resurrected withing your budget. For example, consider a full action replacement with a WNG composite one (they are available for both grands and uprights). Discuss your needs with this person beforehand, perhaps pay him or her for having a few used instruments inspected every once in a while, discussing your hopes and budgets. If you hire this tech once in a while, him or her will not forget of your existence and needs. In fact I seriously thought that this was going to be my most likely purchase, and I was cultivating that -- when then the "no need for work, at a price I could almost afford" piano showed up, and it was well worth the stretch. But I still needed the relationship to get an inspection done immediately, and all the logistics being thought out, especially the schedule and timeframe -- so cultivate that relationship with movers too (which I did, but it was easier for me than it will for you since I was upgrading from other acoustic pianos which needed moving).

Putting strategic keyword searches on the most (and least!!) bulletin board sales popular in your region is key. You will want to know the day the announcement is posted and "you must be ready".

Meanwhile, hope you'll enjoy your VPC1.

porco_rosso

porco_rosso so… I purchased the VPC1 a third time and I hope that it's not broken this time

It's not broken, but also not perfect. The right pedal isn't 100 % functional as always: if I depress it fully it doesn't output 127 but fluctuate (all the time even when not changing the position) between like 70 - 110 - thank good Pianoteq allows to edit the pedal response. And the right pedal squeaks and is slower than the sostenuto and una corda pedal, but that was to be expected unfortunately.

What drives me more nuts: Some keys, especially the a sharp/b 6 and two surrounding keys are so much louder then all the other. It's like a badly regulated (or rather intonated) acoustic piano, where some notes are way to sharp. I could lower the velocities for these keys in the VPC Editor, but if I lower them for example around 20 values the the maximum reachable velocity for these keys would be 107, making them more muted when playing forte. AH! The VPC1 could be such a good product - why does the QC sucks so bad? And besides sits my budget-friendly Roland FP-30 after two years of daily playing and is still so unbelievably consistent and reliable across all keys.

The VPC1 is better in some aspects (faster and smoother for repetitions, trills and runs; feels way more solid overall) but the PHA-4 in others (more consistent and predictable, "better"/more acoustic-upright-like haptic feedback that translates in better connection to the sound; better less slippery surface for both black and white keys; and pedals are way, way (!) better).

porco_rosso

porco_rosso What drives me more nuts: Some keys, especially the a sharp/b 6 and two surrounding keys are so much louder then all the other. It's like a badly regulated (or rather intonated) acoustic piano, where some notes are way to sharp. I could lower the velocities for these keys in the VPC Editor, but if I lower them for example around 20 values the the maximum reachable velocity for these keys would be 107, making them more muted when playing forte.

I did just this and it works fine besides the cut max velocity output. Shouldn't be necessary to this extent but well…

I really like the smooth, heavy (but not too heavy), solid and fast action. While the Roland feels more like an Upright, the VPC1 actually feels a bit like a Grand. It's more… "floaty"!? I got already used to the key surface a bit. And when switching back to the Roland I got problems to keep the tempo I just played on the VPC1 because the keys feel sluggish on the PHA-4. I think I could ask for a Kawai technician to fix the MIDI/weighting irregularities and the right pedal.

RIP

porco_rosso I really like the smooth, heavy (but not too heavy), solid and fast action. While the Roland feels more like an Upright, the VPC1 actually feels a bit like a Grand. It's more…

Nice. Hope this time you'll stick with it. Not ideal, as you say, but decent enough for now, which is a compromise one has always to make with anything in life, even non-music-related.

Best of luck!

porco_rosso

Oh man. Thomann answered that Kawai doesn't offer in-house service for their "portable" pianos. So either I take the VPC1 to a service partner (and this I can't - I don't have and don't drive a car and it's impossible to take this big 30kg/65lbs monster it somewhere and back with public transport) or send it to Thomann and they will then send it to Kawai and so on. But that's not worth it, not the time and wait and especially that I have no control over the regulation process. After all it could be send back without any repairs, because no fault was found (I had this several time with a Playstation 3) and then I'm stuck with it, because the 14 day-return period is over. Fuck the VPC1, really. It could be a good product, but the QC is ridiculous. 3 trys, 3 times a mess (compared to Yamaha and Rolands consistence). And it's not that the demands are high - a functioning pedal and reliable sensor/consistent touch can give me any entry Yamaha, Roland or Casio keyboard and are basics.

CyberGene

That's a very sad story. I'm wondering why a Japanese company is embarrassing itself with these quality issues for many years now. Is it cost saving or is the Indonesian (?) factory to blame?

MacMacMac

CyberGene I'm wondering why a Japanese company is embarrassing itself with these quality issues for many years now.

I've been wondering the same thing.

MBiG

As I said to Kawai (Indonesia) before....in my opinion, definitely a factory problem (Q-gates). If Kawai would pay me enough, and give the corresponding mandate, my promise -> reduction of manufacturing related quality problems by 30-50% after 12 months, reduction by another 30-40% after another 24 months. If these KPIs are not met, I will return the salary. Since this will never happen, we can only hope that the quality pressure regarding the products from this factory will hopefully become so high that Kawai itself will -finally- take this issue into its own hands.

QuasiUnaFantasia

It may not be a quality control issue. Maybe Kawai has simply been cutting costs so much that the percentage of failures has become quite high. It may well be that this is the most economically advantageous path for Kawai, cynical as it might seem from a consumer perspective. All companies must strike some balance between the effort that goes into making products, and the quality of these products. Having anything near zero failures may not be a sustainable strategy.

porco_rosso

It also may be due to transport regarding the keys. The VPC1 (and MP11 SE) are way heavier than the typical stage piano and have wooden keys, so a careless handling may damage the alignment of the keys/sensors/whatever more!?

Concerning the poor Fatar-made-pedal they deliver with the VPC1 since years I have no words. It's just low quality crap.

Nevertheless I may keep the VPC1. I have grown to really love the action in the last couple days and with the note-offset adjustment the velocity problems aren't that noticable. It just feels fun to sit down and play. Thomann would change the pedal unit.

MacMacMac

QuasiUnaFantasia All companies must strike some balance between the effort that goes into making products, and the quality of these products. Having anything near zero failures may not be a sustainable strategy.

I don't agree. Two things:

Why can Kawai not match the quality levels of its competitors? If Yamaha can do it then Kawai has no excuse.
These apparent quality problems put me off buying a Kawai piano, and I'm probably not alone. So, will low quality doom the company in time? It will certainly hurt them, so this is not a good strategy. It's not an economically advantageous path. Indeed, I don't think it's a strategy at all. It's just a mistake yet uncorrected.

QuasiUnaFantasia

MacMacMac Well, maybe you are right, in which case Kawai may falter in time due to loss of customers. On the other hand, maybe Kawai has not miscalculated ...

MBiG

What I personally find very unfortunate is that Kawai, in my humble opinion, makes the better products. In terms of musical experience and innovations. Never before has a digital musical instrument touched me as much as the NV5S. But unfortunately I am very quality-oriented and here Kawai could not convince me with the NV5S and unfortunately also with the MP11SE. My Yami is certainly not the better musical instrument, but it is the better made instrument.

porco_rosso

The QC of Kawai ist just really shameful at the moment. Just two new posts in pianoworld from yesterday and today:

New Kawai NV5s Disappointment

Hi all,

So I've been a long time Kawai fan, I just adore the sound of their pianos and I have just upgraded from an almost 10 year old Kawai CA15. I wanted my "forever piano" (or close to). I had done a huge amount of research and settled on the NV5s as the piano I wanted. After a month of waiting for stock, I received my NV5s yesterday but unfortunately so far it's been a bit of a let down.

My biggest issues right now are;

1. The sound reproduction is unpleasantly artificial. It's VERY apparent that it's being played through a speaker. It's a very hard sensation to describe but I've previously only experienced this on much cheaper digital pianos.
2. Sound distortions/crackles. While playing the piano sounds, occasionally I'd hear what sounded like a distortion or a speaker crackle - I'm not playing near max volume (around 2/3rds) so I thought that would be very odd for such an expensive piano but when playing at max, sure enough, it gets worse. So out of curiosity I played some of the other included sounds, and there are a handful of sounds included on the piano that replicate this issue VERY easily. For example, playing the "Wood Bass" sound is essentially unusable on this piano as the distortions are horrible and the lower registers can cause the soundboard transducer to distort and let off a very loud "squeak". It sounds awful.
3. Cabinet rattles, creaks and resonances. While playing with the piano sounds, especially when getting to more intense parts of any piece, I heard rattles from the cabinet. Again, testing with a bunch of other sounds, you can very easily replicate the worst collection of rattling, squeaking and resonances I've ever heard from a cabinet. Even the occasional parasitic cabinet rattle would ruin the experience for me, but this is on another level.

On the plus side, the action, fluidity and tactility of the NV5s is just incredible. I really do love it which makes these issues all the more painful. As it stands, I would without hesitation choose my old Kawai CA15 over this NV5s. Apart from the action, my CA15 plays and sounds nicer and from the day I got it, it has been flawless.

Now, I don't believe for a second that this is expected so I've reached out to the store I bought the NV5s from. Hopefully we can get it sorted because if not, there is no way I'm keeping this piano.

My concern is that with Onkyo's bankruptcy and the ongoing chip shortage - Kawai have taken some aggressive corner cuts with the speaker/amplification system. I'm somewhat of an audio snob (One of my hobbies is my high-end home theatre setup which I've calibrated to my room etc) and the NV5s is just one of the worst speaker/amplification systems I've ever heard.

Has anyone else experienced any of these issues with the NV5s?

Re: Kawai CA79 / CA99 owners club

I have a CA99 that I've been using for a couple of months. I've been struggling to make the piano sound as good as it should. Note that I'm basing these comments on using my DT 770 Pro headphones. The piano's speaker sound is another issue, not addressed here.

It's like the piano is shipped out without getting any kind of testing or adjustment. For one thing, the piano comes set up so that the lower, mid and upper registers are inconsistent. The bass booms, the middle is weak and the upper register is in between. In addition, key volume is inconsistent within each of those ranges, with some keys sounding weak and others sounding loud and harsh. I don't recall ever trying a digital piano that was this miscalibrated, out of the box.

I'm aware that there are ways to adjust some of these issues, using the Virtual Technician settings. I've had to make individual adjustments to nearly every key using the VT, for both voicing and key volume settings. That's just the start of figuring out what's the best way to make it sound OK. It's necessary to save the setting changes to a Sound name to use later. But if, after saving, you realize you want to change something else in that Sound name file, no joy, all you can do is save a new Sound under a new name. Plus you can't delete files, so I have dozens of Sound names that won't go away until I use the nuclear option of deleting them all and starting over!

OK, I had to get that off my chest.

Actually, I have another more specific issue that has come up. At first I couldn't figure out why the SK-EX sounded extra strange in the region of G4 and above, but finally I traced it down to a "ringing" that occurs after the note is struck. This seems to be only on the SK-EX. I've tried changing to 0 every parameter that might be involved in resonance, but none of them affect the extra sound. The volume of the ringing varies from key to key.

Any ideas?

Here's a link to an MP3 file with the sound:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1hCsLmN_RmHa_zBRnwhrqUAkPWOjoMDl7?usp=sharing

I am really not sure if I want to support Kawai with my money by keeping the VPC1… I am sure most of the customers wouldn't mind paying a few hundred more bucks to ensure a decent Yamaha/Roland-like QC.

HZPiano

porco_rosso I am really not sure if I want to support Kawai with my money by keeping the VPC1

However… if you enjoy playing the VPC1 you finally now have… that should be your only remaining consideration at this point!!

Cheers and happy playing,

vagfilm

porco_rosso ensure a decent Yamaha/Roland-like QC.

I am not sure if it is fair to compare the difficulty of having key-to-key similarity in the wooden kawai actions (with bushings and friction!!!) and the ease of having that in the yamaha/roland actions that are basically rotation of plastic on plastic... QC comparison to the casio GP actions or comparison of the kawai RH3 action vs the yamaha/roland actions would be appropriate.

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