Can speakers ever replicate real Piano Sound?

nicknameTaken

Hi. I remember. I had PianoTeq and 2x Neumann KH120A. It sounded awful. It was like listening to somebody playing, but not actually playing. Far better with headphones.
I started to doubt speakers that arent designed for the purpose of re-creating a piano can be good for the purpose.

What do you guys think?

dore_m

Personally, I think that there is no perfect solution because there are many factors to consider that interact with each other: Recording image, speaker type (directional, non directional), Frequency response, etc. I had hopes for using the flat panel speaker tech, but I also have the ability to record, EQ and process the sound so that the response would be similar to a real piano (at least I think). I just haven't gotten around to it yet, and I know that @Del Vento gave up on the idea.

Del Vento

dore_m I just haven't gotten around to it yet, and I know that @Del Vento gave up on the idea.

Only with the limitations of my setup, which forced me to small panels or at most very narrow ones (small in one direction). My test with large panel (2'x2' or more) have been very positive, and I might eventually use them in my living room, but they don't fit my DIY hybrid.

MacMacMac

Can speakers ever replicate real piano sound?
Simple answer: no.
Reality check: just live with it (or buy an acoustic piano)

Pete14

Soundboard powered by micro-ducers is the future for piano-sound reproduction.

dore_m

So to underline what @Pete14 and Del Vento said, I agree that the most piano-like sound space comes from the large flat panel speakers with transducers as exciters. Because the size of these flat panels are similar to piano soundboards themselves, there are not many (if any) commercial devices that are optimized for piano.

nicknameTaken

Del Vento Please share your setup, and make pictures. Also the perhaps show me how much distance there is between the listener and the speaker.

nicknameTaken

dore_m Sounds pretty accurate. I truly believe manufacturers of digital Pianos did invest a ton of cash for optimization of said features. They are also using a lot of equalization to make up for the small speakers.

Here is the thing: I want to have good audio whilst having a Piano that fits. I experienced problems due to overstretching during play (I am already at the limit of things I can do). Having studied various techniques to overcome the problem.
Pedalling / arpeggiating is a solution, but not a good one.

If I want nowadays a Piano that creates good sound AND fits, as well as its payable, I would probably have to get an upright Piano with custom octave width https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/530-pask-piano-smaller-octave-length
Right?

Killomiter

Hi Guy's

I think this is a bit of a misnomer in as much as most music for most of the time is heard using either headphones or speakers. AKA stereo, radio - even worse some digital device, so we listening to modified sounds whether we like it or not. For those of us who possess an acoustic that is fine but to hear others it is back to the same old if you see.

I am not trying to diss other posters on here and everyone has their own interpretation not to mention duff hearing added into the mix. Have fun! 🙂

Del Vento

nicknameTaken Del Vento Please share your setup, and make pictures. Also the perhaps show me how much distance there is between the listener and the speaker.

2'x2' panels hold by yarn string in front of a wall (about 4" distance from the wall). About 4' distance from the square centers, i.e. 2' distance from the edges. Listener in various position, not closer than the equilateral triangle from the square centers, but walked around the room (a large, heavily rectangular room with slanted ceiling). Everywhere in the room there was extreme "presence" [1], however not as impressive frequency fidelity. Very similar to the various youtube videos described in the previous thread on this topic.

Sorry I can't make pictures at this time because I disassembled the setup. Will make them when I will reassemble but that's lower priority for now.

[1]: as I wrote in a previous comment, a good violin recording felt like there was actually a violinist in front of me, and ditto with a piano (but less spectacularly so). I often experience both situation with real, acoustic instrument in various setup (e.g. piano and violin teacher studios)

dore_m

My 2cents: I think large flat speakers (to save space) would be best put in the "hanging" position to simulate more or less an upright, and in a "laid down" position to simulate a grand. I was considering to do this on top of my grand's lid. This recreates the piano's large soundboard direction and diffusion.

But the thing that is really difficult to re-create is the stereo image. A piano is one big speaker with a bunch of hammers positioned from left to right. The sound of each attack comes distinctly from a particular direction, and the sustain is more diffuse, yet also has some directionality. So the ideal situation (I think) would be to re-create the hammer image using several small speakers (if it were possible) and then use the large speaker to handle the sustains. But because the hammers are so wide and close to the player, this would require something more than 2 speakers and thus more channels.

So I basically gave up and made a VR piano using headphones, which are much easier to control.

nicknameTaken

Perhaps I should rephrase it. I want it to be good enough to be really enjoyable. I don't know much about those flat speakers. Also I don't know how to go about positioning them. Are they 'hanging' from the ceiling? Just vertically for an upright? How are they amplified… etc

I seek a bit of a guide. I basically want to be 'better' than a digital Piano. In this case, a Roland FP-30.

dore_m

Read through this thread, some youtube videos in there might help:

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/200-upright-piano-speaker-simulator-addon-idea

nicknameTaken

dore_m Is there no solution that doesn't send me down a rabbit hole? I just want to get on par or better than the Roland FP-30 speakers. Since you scrapped the foam speaker idea, it doesn't sound very suitable to me. But is it?

dore_m

nicknameTaken We're coming at this from entirely two different directions. I'm a guy who goes through the painstaking process of making his own sampled instruments to ensure the geniune-ness of the instrument. I'm willing to DIY myself into an optimal solution. You probably are not this left field.

I don't have any experience with the FP-30, nor other DP's really. So I don't have the same starting perspective that you do. I assume that any speakers larger than a small DP are going to sound better. The question is how much better do you want it, and which things are important to you? Only you can answer that. If you want to come at this from the "

nicknameTaken I just want to get on par or better than the Roland FP-30 speakers." direction (opposite the DIY an optimal solution direction), then you should probably take some recordings of your piano to a hi-fi store (for hi fi style speakers), or a music store (for studio monitors) and see what you like the best. I think the information we provide here just guides you in understanding which things you should look out for (stereo image, frequency response, etc.) Flat panel speakers have the advantage that they disperse sound much more like a piano, but that solution might be too much work for you. You could go to a hifi store and find some Magnepans, or other flat panels style speakers to hear what I mean. I've heard Magnepans and really like them, so I bought some $50 Dayton Audio transducers and some foam from the hardware store to see what DIY would sound like. I haven't exactly given up, I just would rather spend my time optimizing my sampled instruments.

If you're looking for suggestions on studio monitors or hi fi speakers, pretty much none of them will make a real piano sound in the way that I define it. Others on the forum might have better suggestions for these types of products, I can't recommend any because they're not good enough for me.

nicknameTaken

dore_m

aaaaaaa.

The benefit of the Roland FP-30 is that it sounds as if I were playing a Piano. The speakers are pointed towards the floor. The problem with 'HiFi' Speakers or even professional Monitors is, that placement is crucial - and that my past try with 2x Neumann KH120A it sounded like I was meters away. Tried a vast amount of different VSTs.

What I require is, a setup that will feel as if I were playing the Piano, in Person. But comparable or better than the FP-30 experience. Basically, what set of speakers in which configuration is recommendable to feel as if you sat in front of a Piano? The FP-30 emulates it. And it does quite well doing so. I know how uprights sound. Of course, fidelity wise its worse. But the distance of the audio? Its on point.

The problem with HiFi speakers IS the distance. My best guess is that I have to opt for very small speakers, and add a couple of woofers on the floor.

dore_m

Basically, I doubt you will find an off the shelf solution that will meet your requirement. My best guess is my flat panel speaker proposal from the other thread, but it requires work and experimentation. I put that experiment on hold, as I now just focus on using my headphones and VR tracking to simulate the soundspace, which is more easily reproducible, given I control all of the other parameters, including the piano samples.

Maybe someone else has a suggestion….

Del Vento

dore_m Basically, I doubt you will find an off the shelf solution that will meet your requirement.

I agree.

dore_m Maybe someone else has a suggestion….

Buy the foam and the exciters, and experiment with it. The price is a restaurant meal, if you can invest time and have room for the assembly, I think you will be satisfied. If not, you will have a clear idea of why not and can continue your search in another direction

nicknameTaken

n-player Speakers are required if local practice with a teacher is important, right? Is it not like that? What about hot temparature in the room? The only way to cancel that, are directional earphones, right? (mount on skull, but don't create seal)

Del Vento The initial price is a Restaurant meal, agreed. The soldering, cutting, shaping, constructing, hanging … those are steps that take a bit of time and knowledge. With the videos, you provided, am I able to do THAT? I want to do it properly. Of course, by trying, I will get expertise. However, I would actually prefer, if you guided me a bit, at least. Which tools to buy, et cetera.
Also, can the foam be cut in a living room, is it potentially toxic, do I have to wear special masks… ?

How solid is the foam? Is it easy to damage? Would I perhaps benefit from getting a wooden frame, or even an carbon fibre frame to socket the foam and the speaker? Right now, there are 6 large acoustic elements right behind my Piano, which improve the room acoustics. If the foam would hang from the ceiling, it would be pretty close to the absorbers and the very edge of the digital Piano.

Your input, my master 🙂

n-player

Headphones:

Remove effect of your room's acoustics (largely)
Remove distortion from crossovers (one driver per channel)
Don't require set up or much space
Environmentally friendly and don't bother the neighbours

Personally, I find large, open-backed headphones that are light-weight to be the best design.

Loudspeakers can provide a bit more physical sensation particularly in low frequencies. So loudspeakers might be more advantageous for an organ than for a piano. Also, to get good low frequency performance below say 50hz, requires expensive subwoofer and time-consuming set up; you neighbours will not be happy. Good loudspeakers are expensive, difficult to set up properly, and take a lot of space.

Del Vento

nicknameTaken However, I would actually prefer, if you guided me a bit, at least.

nicknameTaken Your input, my master 🙂

If you were asking how to destroy a grand piano and rebuild it as an upright, I could give you a lot of suggestions (actually I have already done so in my DIY hybrid series of posts). With this speakers, I can only point you out to the videos already mentioned, since that is what I did.

nicknameTaken Also, can the foam be cut in a living room, is it potentially toxic, do I have to wear special masks… ?

Well, everything is toxic, and everything is not. You can get seriously ill for drinking too much water, and you can literally die in a few hours for eating too much kitchen salt. It's all about quantity and time (for water it's about 5-6 gallons, IIRC, for salt is about half a typical package). That's a funny way to say that I don't really know for sure, however since it's a pretty common product used in constructions, it must be at least decently safe if not totally safe. People often complain about other things for this product, but I've never heard it as toxic, even mildly so. It does not make any dust when cut with a box cutter which is what I used and what those videos suggest. It's really simple: buy, cut (unless you buy already the dimension you want, which is available), glue the exciter, with the provided double tape. For some tests, I first held them by hand, and then taped with normal tape. Some exciter already have the push connector for the speaker wire, so you don't even have to worry about soldering or crimping.

Again, those videos describe all I know better than I could in words.