My experience of VST latency -is this typical?

Paul J

Hi folks, I've lurked a while at Piano World (DP forum) and happy to support this new venture (thanks CG!). I must admit this is partly motivated by a much better interface, especially when trying to upload files 😀

TL;DR: Ravenscroft 275 is my first VST and latency is unacceptable to me (audio files below). Is this a fairly typical compromise that everyone is making when using VSTs? I would like to know before going any further down the VST rabbit hole…..

I've had a Yamaha CLP-585 since 2014 and interested in getting better sound with VSTs, so I started out with the VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 which I bought last year in a sale after reading good things about it. Running on Windows laptop (i7-6600U processor from 2015, 8GB RAM, Ravenscroft running on internal SSD, seems to cope fine). Using latest version of ASIO4ALL 2.15 and 64 samples buffer (1.5ms) @ 44.1 kHz. I have read most of the discussions about settings/buffers/Macs vs PCs/inherently poor audio setup on PCs/external audio eg Focusrite.

For these 2 audio files I have mixed the audio of the onboard CFX Grand with the Ravenscroft 275 together so you can hear the "echo" of latency. Recorded twice using 2 routings:

CLP-585 > Cable (see below) > Windows laptop > R275 on UVI Workstation using ASIO4ALL drivers > Laptop headphone socket 3.5mm > CLP-585 Aux in > Headphone out to audio recorder (WAV) > Audacity editor (amplify & export to MP3)

Each sample starts with me playing just the Ravenscroft 275 (Local Control OFF on CLP-585 to mute onboard sound), then I turn Local Control ON to bring in the onboard CFX Grand sample which gives an "echo" effect of the R275 latency.

1- Cable is USB (B to A) which gives ground loop noise: usb-cable-ground-loop-noise.mp3

2 - Cable is Roland UM-One Mk 2 MIDI to USB cable: midi-cable.mp3

Many thanks to Gombessa for the great advice on the PW thread about solving ground loop noise. I thought I would compare latency using both direct USB & Roland MIDI just to be sure, and also give an example of the ground loop noise produced when using direct USB if this helps anyone. I can't notice any difference in latency between them, not that I really expected any difference.

By using Audacity to visually identify the separate audio peaks of onboard CFX and the R275 (bit tricky), I estimate about 60 - 70ms latency between onboard & VST which is the equivalent of sound travelling distance of approx. 20m.

The problem for me is that when playing Ravenscroft 275 VST, my brain is waiting for the sound when my finger hits the bottom of the key and it just doesn't feel natural.

For those of you who use VSTs regularly, I would really appreciate your feedback on the audio files above and whether you notice any similar latency compared to your onboard sounds.

If using a VST is always going to result in noticeable latency and small loss of "immediacy" in the sound then fine, I can learn to live with onboard sounds and trade up to a newer model at some point.

If you can't tell any difference in latency between onboard & VST then great, I will continue looking at options. Most likely going to end up with a VSL Synchron piano (wait for release of their M1 native version first) and Macbook Air or Mini (wait for next Apple product updates later this year). In which case time to start saving….🙂

HZPiano

MacMacMac Maybe the Ravenscroft controls can indirectly access the ASIO4All control

Yes indeed. The UVI workstation/player passes the buffer and sample rate settings through to the ASIO driver.

The latency Paul J experiences is out of the ordinary -- his 64 is a dream setting and if that doesn't pop/crack/click/derail should be highly satisfactory in playing. So as has been said already, something odd is going on there.

I'm rather stable with the UVI player and Modern U with buffer size 256. That works but gives the slightest(!) feeling of disconnect. I'd be rather happy if I could get to 128 or 64 in a robust manner. At those settings, my feeling of immediacy (essential!) is a lot better.

I'm currently working through this splendid document to see how far I can get:

https://download.cantabilesoftware.com/GlitchFree.pdf

Cheers and happy tuning,

CyberGene

Welcome to the forum 🤝

What you experience and measure (60-70ms lag) is certainly not normal. I haven’t measured actual latency when I played with various virtual pianos on various computers and OS-es but I can assure you with the proper buffer size there won’t be a difference in the experienced latency between an internal engine and a virtual piano. So, there’s some problem apparently but someone more familiar with Windows should help here.

Just to make sure: you’re setting the buffer size from within the virtual piano settings, right? Not from the asio4all panel? I’m not sure this makes a difference but from my Windows years I remember that was a thing.

Frédéric L

The latency is not (buffer size / sample rate), but higher. And the added headroom depends of the audio interface. A real ASIO driver should report the actual latency. But you need one made for live music : Focusrite 2i2 has a quite good latency for its price.

In doubt set the same buffer value in the VST and the ASIO4ALL panel. (I typically use the ASIO panel and ask my DAW not to override the ASIO settings).

Paul J

Thanks for your feedback guys

Frédéric L In doubt set the same buffer value in the VST and the ASIO4ALL panel. (I typically use the ASIO panel and ask my DAW not to override the ASIO settings).

MacMacMac But if not, then you'll need to set the ASIO4All buffer size.

Yes that was the main issue, silly me, I hadn't spotted that the ASIO4ALL buffer bar at bottom was still on 512 so I dragged it left to 64 so it sits on top of the blue square. Now set up as below:

Latency is improved and now playable, although I do still notice the difference between VST and the onboard CFX "immediate" response. Occasional tiny click at 64 buffer but not enough to bother me. My laptop is running rather hot though until UVI Workstation is closed, then the fan slows down. Obviously there are other latency issues involved on my laptop

HZPiano I'm currently working through this splendid document to see how far I can get:

https://download.cantabilesoftware.com/GlitchFree.pdf

Thanks HZ, lots of good stuff there, I'll check it out. To be honest, this is why going down the Mac route appeals to me, just to avoid all that.

[deleted] I just started using VSTs with a windows based PC. I have a 1TB SSD hard drive with 32g onboard plus an additional 32g RAM. I'm using the VSL libraries with no problems on my Yamaha P515.

Good to know. Since the piano is in a fairly small living room which 100% my wife's territory, any dedicated desktop style computer would need to be hidden so a Mac Mini running headless with our existing iPad would really appeal to me as it is small and runs silent.

So I finally got to spend some time playing the Ravenscroft just now through headphones and the sound/ambience really helped me get into a bit of bluesy improvising, just makes the piano come alive and it's certainly a lot of fun! Ravenscroft could definitely benefit from a bit more power in the bass, I remember people commenting on this in PW discussions and I agree, hitting a bass note hard certainly lacks the "bite" you would expect.

I'll keep using onboard sounds for day-to-day playing as I prefer the immediate response, and use Ravenscroft when I want a change. Getting the laptop & cables set up and then put away again is also a bit of a hassle.

Yikes, way past my bedtime 💤

Paul J

Hi CG - thanks for your super quick reply! Yes I am setting buffer size within the virtual piano, not ASIO4ALL panel.

Great to know that noticeable latency issues can be eliminated - that is very reassuring to know. I just had to get a second opinion on what I was hearing.

Hi Frédéric- many thanks for your advice, I'll check my settings.

So I will probably stick with my onboard piano sounds for the moment, I really haven't got much spare time for tinkering with Windows. CFX Grand sound on CLP-585 is pretty good.

But now I know that I can continue researching VSTs and maybe have another go at Ravenscroft if I make the move to Mac at some point.

To others reading, I'm not seeking detailed advice on my PC setup so please don't feel the need to offer advice on this. I know there are many discussions on this elsewhere.

Anyway, I'm glad to join the PianoClack forum and hopefully I can make a few helpful contributions along the way

MacMacMac

Paul J Yes I am setting buffer size within the virtual piano, not ASIO4ALL panel.

That's probably a part of the problem. Now … maybe I'm mistaken because I've never used the Ravenscroft. Maybe the Ravenscroft controls can indirectly access the ASIO4All control panel? If so, then disregard this.

But if not, then you'll need to set the ASIO4All buffer size. Make it as small as possible, without getting dropouts and crackling noises.

David B

I've only had experience with Mac's and VSTs. I've never experienced latency issues. There is no difference between onboard sounds and my computer/sampled libraries. VSL has given me some problems when running too many mics, but I'm hoping they will fix that with their switch to M1 compatibility soon. I hope it's soon.

It must be a PC thing because that's the only time I ever read about people having problems. I never read about latency issues and Macs.

God Bless,
David

Paul J

Thanks David, that's great to know. Very likely I'll go with Apple Mac. Yes, hopefully VSL will get that update out soon now they have completed the move to iLok.

Many thanks also for your review of the Hidrau piano bench, after seeing your excellent YouTube videos (and Josh's Wright's review) I bought the same one last year with leather top and the ergonomic profile. Got it from a local shop in Sussex who ordered it direct from Hidrau Spain to UK.

Now my son (7 years old) can sit with arms level to keyboard when playing, then I can quickly drop it back down when I play. Really comfy and no absolutely no regrets.

A few posts in and I'm already OT 😄

David B

Paul J Many thanks also for your review of the Hidrau piano bench, after seeing your excellent YouTube videos (and Josh's Wright's review) I bought the same one last year with leather top and the ergonomic profile. Got it from a local shop in Sussex who ordered it direct from Hidrau Spain to UK.

That's awesome. 👍
The Hidrau bench is singularly one of the most important purchases I've made. It's relieved a ton of back stress and promotes proper posture at the piano.

God bless,
David

Tyr

I'm just using the ASIO4ALL driver and have zero issues with latency. I have 10 or 15 different VSTs and all are running perfectly fine.

David B

HZPiano I'm rather stable with the UVI player and Modern U with buffer size 256. That works but gives the slightest(!) feeling of disconnect. I'd be rather happy if I could get to 128 or 64 in a robust manner. At those settings, my feeling of immediacy (essential!) is a lot better.

UVI is universal binary and I can run the buffer at 16 if I wanted to with my Mac and it would handle it fine. However, I run it at 32 because there is no discernible difference (to me) between 16 and 32.

God Bless,
David

HZPiano

David B , CyberGene ,

That sounds utterly interesting and promising, thanks!

No way for me to invest in an Apple, unfortunately, although it did cross my mind yesterday. Could I get away with something used? If so, what should I get? My most recent experience with (and knowledge of) Apple has been with the Macintosh with built-in CRT and floppy drive 😬 (no kidding!).

Cheers and happy glitch free playing,

HZPiano

Hello,

David B , CyberGene ,

I have looked into what M1, Universal Binary and such terms actually mean, and I now understand the advantages better.

Universal Binary sounds a lot more thrilling than it is -- simply speaking it is just a way of packaging application delivery. With the benefit of compiling an application for several architectures instead of a 'generalized' one, giving the user a binary that is potentially more optimised for their particular processor.

So I would need a fairly recent Mac Mini or MacBook, the cheapest used option I could find for a lower-spec'd M1 Mini is still circa 500€, new ones are prohibitively expensive. These are amounts I am not willing to invest in yet another computer.

So I'll improvise some more with what I have and at least learned something new this morning 🙂.

Cheers and happy playing,

CyberGene

I'm really impressed with the UVI player that came with the Modern U. I guess the fact it's universal binary (native Apple Silicon support) makes it lightning fast on my MacBook Air M1 and I can use any of the buffer settings without glitches.

P.S. I wish Garritan CFX had native Apple Silicon support 😕

Pete14

HZPiano No way for me to invest in an Apple, unfortunately, although it did cross my mind yesterday.

An apple a day keeps the doctor away!

Isn’t one’s well-being the best investment one can make?

HZPiano

L@"David B"#p11080 However, I run it at 32 because there is no discernible difference (to me) between 16 and 32.

Indeed there wouldn't be.

Cheers and happy 'dream' buffer sizes,

HZPiano

Pete14 apple a day

🍎 🍐 🍌 🥝 😋

[deleted]

I just started using VSTs with a windows based PC. I have a 1TB SSD hard drive with 32g onboard plus an additional 32g RAM. I'm using the VSL libraries with no problems on my Yamaha P515.

vagfilm

BTW, is that "Headphones Hands-Free AG Audio" bluetooth or wired? Is that what you use? I remember you mentioned using the PC audio-out as aux-in in the piano. In case it is bluetooth and you listen directly through PC-headphones, keep in mind that bluetooth usually (always???) creates latency. The other thing is that, at least in my case, Realtek chipset is 48kHz. You may try to change the sample rate on UVI Workstation from 44100 to 48000 and see if that improves anything.

Paul J

vagfilm BTW, is that "Headphones Hands-Free AG Audio" bluetooth or wired?

I used wired headphones. The "Realtek HD Audio 2nd output with SST" is the headphone jack, with 3.5mm audio cable into piano aux in. Then I plug my headphones into the piano.

The "Headphones Hands Free AG Audio" isn't used as far as I know.

vagfilm You may try to change the sample rate on UVI Workstation from 44100 to 48000 and see if that improves anything.

Thanks for the tip, I tried this just now and perhaps there is tiny improvement, very hard to tell. I'll leave it on 48000 from now on.