Cheapish console digital pianos with nice action?

homerghost

I'm really struggling with making a decision here and I'd humbly appreciate some guidance!

Preface is, I'm not getting on well with the PHA-4 action of my Roland FP-30X. It feels slow and sluggish and I just don't enjoy using it. I liked it a lot at first as a beginner, and I can see why other people love it, but as my playing has grown I have found that it just doesn't work for me.

My use case is simple: home learning and fun, mostly Bach/Beethoven/Mozart. I use Pianoteq, so good MIDI controller performance is a must. I almost exclusively play with headphones via a Steinberg UR22C, so poor/absent onboard speakers are negotiable.

I'm increasingly less fussy about features (ie. my previous post about onboard USB audio return - it's a cool feature but I can live without it!), I just want light, responsive, enjoyable action. I'd prefer a nice looking upright console/furniture style too, but I'd settle for a portable on a wooden stand if I really have to.

I've tried the Kawai KDP120 and to my surprise, I preferred this cheaper action to the more expensive CN39 and CA49 with their more premium actions. It was a bit "boingy" but it was really a lot of fun to play. From what I understand this unit is essentially the same as the ES110 which seems to be well regarded for MIDI performance so I'm hoping it's the same situation here? I didn't like the heavier "grand feel" Kawais so much, but the RHIII (CN39) felt quite nice and I'm wondering whether my preference for the RHCII (KDP120) is naive and something I'll grow out of quickly.

I was apprehensive of Roland after my past experience, but to my amazement the PHA-50 actions I tried feel dramatically better and not heavy at all compared to the PHA-4. I'm wondering if anyone else has made this jump and not regretted it? And does it work well as a controller? I'm also not sure what the cheapest options are for no-frills PHA-50 action especially in a console form factor - the closest I can seem to find is the HP704, but this is more than double the price of the Kawai KDP120 which I don't mind, but it seems like it's mostly for features that I just don't need. I haven't had much luck finding an alternative and even the FP-90X is in the same price bracket. I'm happy to consider the HP704 if it's the best option - but it seems like overkill.

I tried the Korg D1, Yamaha P125 and P515 in lieu of their console counterparts, and even though they were much better actions than my current, sadly these didn't feel quite right for me.

So tl;dr: Would you recommend the Kawai KDP120 as a fancy-looking midi controller for an uncultured player? Is my phobia of Roland unfounded and should I splash out on something with PHA-50 action - if so, what?

Thank you in advance for entertaining my rambling and I will truly appreciate any anecdotes, suggestions or help you can give 🙏

HZPiano

Hello,

I will follow this thread with keen interest. Now that my Covid vaccination finally has been topped-up yesterday I also want to go out soon and refresh my action impressions, just like CyberGene says -- for it's been some 20 months since I last touched any digital in any store whatsoever.

homerghost, I play Roland's FP-10 -- solely as a MIDI controller too -- and so far I am a happy PHA-4 player. Yet, the 'push back' that CyberGene mentions keeps continually triggering my curiosity towards 'something else'.

Maybe I should re-read this thread:

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/382-upgrade-to-vpc1mp11se-from-my-pha-4

to talk myself out of such thoughts once again 😬.

Cheers and a happy search,

HZPiano

Hello,

homerghost , You may already know, but the KDP120 by Kawai has a triple-sensor action where the ES110 has a dual sensor action. On paper, that would make the former more attractive as a controller. Also, the KDP120's action is said to be somewhat quieter and subtly nicer to the touch than the ES110. But I cannot give you a first-hand confirmation on that. Note that if you like it -- you like it! And that is an important clue, not to be overlooked.

Kawai's RHIII action is a step up from that and considered a good (albeit still plastic and still somewhat bouncy) action by many. It is intended to be more allround, serving piano playing as well as other 'voices' such as Rhodes/organ. An affordable beast of a slab piano featuring this action is the MP7SE. A piano that still tickles my curiosity as well.

Maybe your top three to compare and choose from are the KDP120, Kawai RHIII pianos, and Roland PHA-50 pianos?

Hope these are useable thoughts,

Cheers and a happy search,

CyberGene

I’d say Kawai actions are pretty good if you’re looking for light feeling action. Yamahas are on the heavy side as a whole. Roland are maybe in between but more towards heavy. It’s an oversimplification of course.

Ultimately you should decide for yourself but you won’t go wrong with a Kawai action IMO.

Pete14

CyberGene Ultimately you should decide for yourself but you won’t go wrong with a Kawai action IMO.

You know, I used to think this until I played the GF action; I could never get used to it (too light and fluffy).

I loved the RM3/II and was so excited about trying the GF, you know, ‘cause longer pivots; now, to be fair, I’ve not tried the newer iterations, but the consensus seems to be that these are also “light.”

I remember thinking I’d never go back to a folded action (after owning an MP-10), but now I have a P-515 and it’s just so good that it made me reassess. I concluded that a wooden stick on a pivot is not ‘always’ better than a conventional folded action (excepting a real action, of course).

CyberGene

In my current state of mind I would choose the digital action that has the least irritating effect of constantly pushing back against my fingers 😀 But I haven’t tested digital pianos side by side for quite a long time, so I can’t really say which one is better in that regard.

Pete14

I’ve wondered if Kawai was trying to alleviate this ‘push’ you talk about, and then went too far?

We’ll never know, but if that was the intent, they should’ve balanced things out a little bit better; in other words, alleviate ‘the push’ without making the key(s) excessively light and fluffy.

Still, I’ll take ‘the push’ over excessively light and fluffy any day of the week; however, if they could come up with something similar to the weight of the NWX action but with less push, that would be great.

BTW, I never much noticed ‘the push’ until you mentioned it; now I do notice it, and you know what that means: N1X, here I come!🤣

Theophilus Carter

OP, are you me? 😃 I could have written that post … I also had the PHA-4, and grew tired of it. It's heavy, but also kinda sticky, for lack of a better word, like it's not just the weight, but too much friction or something?

Anyway, I went to the PHA-50 and LOVE it. My console is the DP-603, which I think is the cheapest console with the PHA-50 out there, at least that I'm aware of. I also have a RD-2000 for a "portable" piano -- I put that in quotes because it's so heavy!

I definitely have no regrets, and highly recommend it.

P.S.: Looks like the DP-603 is in stock at Musician's Friend and Kraft Music, FYI. 🙂

homerghost

Theophilus Carter It's so nice to have my feelings vindicated! I keep thinking "a poor workman always blames his tools" but it seems I'm not alone here. Sticky is the word, it feels like I'm playing underwater sometimes. Thanks for the recommendation, I hadn't spotted that one and it looks almost exactly what I'd be looking for! The RD2000 is a beautiful one too and one of my favourite YouTube pianists just bought one. What I would give for Roland to just release a controller with this action!

I don't have much experience with different pianos so I couldn't be sure if I liked the PHA-50 so much because it was new and different, but from what I'm hearing I think it's genuinely a gigantic leap up from the 4. I'm leaning towards the Kawai - it's £1000 cheaper! - but even if I do I think it'll be a stop-gap towards an eventual Roland upgrade with this action. Thank you!

CyberGene

I think I will be going to test some pianos these days and will share my opinion although I'm not sure what's currently available in stores.

It's becoming epic on my side already but since I first bought a Yamaha YC61 (a Hammond-emulation board with soft waterfall keys which is also a great stage piano) but I wanted to have more keys and hammer-action, I replaced it with a YC73 (the same thing but with BHS action which I liked, a bit springy but also light-feeling since it's targeted for Rhodes playing) but it had a defective encoder knob and so I returned it again but there are no available replacements unfortunately, I will have to wait 2 months for another YC73 and the only available stage piano that is close to it is the CP88 and I think I will order it 😀 But I need to go to a piano store and test some Yamaha piano actions to refresh myself on how they feel and whether I will be good with the NW-GH3 action in the CP88 which I assume would be similar to the GH3 action in some of the Clavinova pianos. (P.S. Seems the store I'm looking at has the YDP-164 available and that's the only piano there with GH3 action.)

CyberGene

HZPiano Now that my Covid vaccination finally has been topped-up yesterday I also want to go out soon and refresh my action impressions

Not to open another Covid off-topic but here in Bulgaria we hold the record for least percentage of vaccinated people in Europe (and also most Covid-related deaths), however since nobody observed the Covid-measures strictly, ultimately everybody got infected sooner or later and we developed a strong herd immunity and currently we're top 4 in Europe for lowest number of Covid infections and so they recently removed all measures, we're not required to wear masks anywhere, nor present certificates, so basically it's the life as it used to be before Covid 🥳 Not that it matters a lot since nobody observed the measures anyway, but still... it's now legal, so we returned to life!

HZPiano

Hello all,

As I said I probably would…

HZPiano Yet, the 'push back' that CyberGene mentions keeps continually triggering my curiosity towards 'something else'.

Maybe I should re-read this thread:

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/382-upgrade-to-vpc1mp11se-from-my-pha-4

to talk myself out of such thoughts once again 😬.

… I just re-read this here thread.

And am once again saying Thanks to all for the quality responses 🙂 🥇!

Cheers and happy playing,

HZPiano

CyberGene Now, are there any moderators monitoring this here forum? Off-topics like these should be forbidden and/or swiftly moved to another, preferably deeply buried somewhere, thread. Pianos and actions are a serious matter!!

😉 Just teasing.

Over here in The Netherlands everything is returning back to 'normal' (whatever that means!!) too and I do look forward a lot to be traveling again to loved ones, piano stores, bass luthiers, museums etc.

I have been in a prolonged 'lockdown' because for medical reasons I need to be super extra careful with those viruses. Which hasn't been particularly easy, I can tell you.

Back to the studio, back to Piano Upgrades.

Cheers and stay safe,

homerghost

HZPiano Thank you for this, I wasn't actually aware that the ES110 was dual sensor! I'm too much of a noob to really feel the difference but the KDP120 definitely felt better to my hands, but I thought it was just a placebo. Especially for midi purposes I think that clinches it between the two here.

The RHIII I tried felt very nice, and I certainly preferred it to their "grand feel" but still didn't quite like it over the KDL. The PHA-50 range is a very close contender but they don't have any budget options, it seems - there is quite a price jump from the KDL that I found to be immensely fun to play, and the PHA-50 models that I certainly loved and felt they gave me something more stable feeling and high end, but I'm not convinced at double the price point for my abilities.

Theophilus Carter

homerghost You definitely can't go wrong with a Kawai either. Whichever you decide on, I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

CyberGene

I was at a store today. There wasn’t anything worth mentioning there. But I sat and played a P515 for 20 minutes and really liked it. There’s this feeling of a hammer beneath the key that can be thrown independently from the key, as on a real piano. There’s certain complexity and sophistication with that piano I really loved. The bulk of the pianos there were YDP-s with GHS action and apparently the P515 was a class above. There was also a FP10x that was kind of OK but nothing else. Oddly enough there were some Casios, I think a PX-S1000 whose keys felt rather good taking in mind the price and the ridiculously small footprint. But the sound was appalling. There’s this short pivot problem where the keys become quite heavy towards the back but I don’t think it was very bad either.

homerghost

CyberGene Ah thank you for reporting in! I tried a P515 and it's definitely excellent action but I think I found it a tiny little bit on the heavy side for my liking. I've not really tried many of the Casios but maybe I'm missing a trick there!

HZPiano

CyberGene Thanks from me as well, CG, for that little report. Over morning coffee I looked (online) into the YDPs a bit (for all(?) the **4 models are currently becoming **5 models). But don't think those are for me.

It is interesting that you mention that hammer-throwing feeling on the P515. That is what I miss the most (I think) while playing PHA-4. Of course I would then hope that the sensors actually pick up from those hammer swings, not the keys, so this also translates to the resulting MIDI stream.

In PHA-4, the triple sensors pick up from underneath the 'fallboard' end of each key, and are not at all related (mechanically) to the hammer.

Cheers and happy playing,

Pete14

CyberGene was at a store today. There wasn’t anything worth mentioning there. But I sat and played a P515 for 20 minutes and really liked it. There’s this feeling of a hammer beneath the key that can be thrown independently from the key, as on a real piano. There’s certain complexity and sophistication with that piano I really loved

This!

Long live the P-515!

CyberGene

homerghost I tried a P515 and it's definitely excellent action but I think I found it a tiny little bit on the heavy side for my liking.

I tend to agree. Definitely not the heaviest action there but still heavy and substantial, more so than Kawai actions.

I also played my ES7 in the weekend for a few minutes (it’s at my in laws’ house). I don’t know why, I used to like it but it felt too plasticky in a way, clacks and clicks… Not my thing.

HZPiano

CyberGene Definitely not the heaviest action there but still heavy and substantial

Not really answerable objectively, I know, but: of the two P515 and FP10 you played there, which felt 'heavier' to you?

Other (action/playability related) differences that stood out to you?

Cheers!

CyberGene

HZPiano I don't think they felt different in weight, although I haven't compared them side by side. Maybe the FP10x was just a tiny bit lighter. But it also felt somehow stiffer, I don't know, kind of "slow", more inertial? This is all too subjective.