Modern D vs Pianoteq

dikrek · 2026-03-05T01:51:23+00:00

Hi all, making this its own post - thanks for the feedback on the other thread. It became clear we need a great real performance to compare, not some robotic MIDI file, so I used David's own (obviously I don't have the proper velocity curve but let's see). This is his performance on YouTube: Here are 3 renditions with Pianoteq. debussy-lai-sunken-cathedral-hbd.mp3 debussy-lai-sunken-cathedral-nyd.mp3 debussy-lai-sunken-cathedral-bluthner.mp3 @HZPiano to your earlier point - I feel I can connect with the music with this tone. Still lipstick on a pig? 🙂 @David Lai I didn't try to get exactly the recording tone of Modern D but more the essence. @QuasiUnaFantasia still hear a Wurli player mixed with a synth bass player? @David B compare to v8 and tell me if it sounds better to you. @emily still xylophone? 🙂 @Pete14 constructive comments if possible 🙂

David Lai

dikrek I have a small bedroom, and I have mattresses stacked as some sort of treatment on the back wall. When I’m in my room, I mainly hear the speakers, I don’t hear the room this much.

dikrek

johanibraaten it’s infinitely malleable. Which is probably the problem for most people.

dikrek

David Lai LOL no. No bass traps, no ceiling treatment, nobody actually came to properly help with this. No room EQ.

It’s not about NOT hearing the room.

David Lai

dikrek Come on, I'm a university student who rents an appartment in a university-managed appartment building, I can't just drill holes and hang stuff up! Believe me, I've considered my options. I don't want to pay extra.

CyberGene

dikrek but David, a great pair of speakers and a good interface isn’t at all enough to figure out sound quality. Is the room professionally treated? Do you have room EQ?

If the answer is no - you could be suffering from very sub-standard and inaccurate sound even if you have the most expensive speakers in the world.

Sorry, but I call that BS. When enough people can hear very specific and particular deficiencies in Pianoteq, trying to blame it on David’s audio equipment and room is really silly. For one, he might have better hearing than most people and I’m OK with such an argument: he’s hearing stuff that won’t bother the regular person. But his equipment and room treatment?! Come on!

johanibraaten

dikrek it’s infinitely malleable. Which is probably the problem for most people.

Yeah, I don’t really mess with the presets, just velocity (global and some off-set) and occasionally some hammer hardness. I’ve tried more tweaking but it most often makes it worse.

dikrek

CyberGene I’m looking at this from a mixing/mastering perspective. It’s next to impossible to do that right unless you have a very well treated room and/or know how your room is wrong and know how to compensate for it.

This stuff is HARD.

Johnstaf

David Lai Come on, I'm a university student who rents an appartment in a university-managed appartment building, I can't just drill holes and hang stuff up! Believe me, I've considered my options. I don't want to pay extra.

For evaluating a piano's timbre, especially if you're close to the speakers and the room isn't too live, it doesn't make much difference. Sound editing and mixing decisions are different, as you need the listing space to be as neutral as possible.

I have my acoustic pianos in an untreated room and they still sound like acoustic pianos. Your listening equipment is more than good enough to represent the sound of the digital pianos you have.

Playback equipment and room treatment won't make one digital piano sound more realistic than another. It doesn't work that way.

CyberGene

dikrek FWIW, most of the time I’m on headphones: my Sennheiser HD650, when listening to music and playing the piano. They eliminate room issues and I can still hear the typical Pianoteq artifacts. But that’s not important, since I can hear it on various headphones and speakers. BTW, to me Pianoteq sounds better on speakers compared to headphones. And some models are better than others.

Anyway, my point is, our brains are powerfully adaptive machines. Perfecting your audio equipment is for pleasure. But unless it’s a really crappy audio system, our brain can neutralize the offsets/coloration in an amazing way to allow us hear everything that’s there and make an opinion of whether a piano sound is good or bad.

David Lai

dikrek Well, I'm not looking it from a mixing / mastering perspective, because I'm not a mixing engineer. I'm looking at this debate from a pianist and listener's perspective, so that explains why you're continuing to twist knobs and add effects.

And by the way, for your information, I've got a pair of desktop stands to decouple my setup. I'm quite proud of this setup.

dikrek

David Lai this one sounds better to me. Very nice.

dikrek

CyberGene agreed in general - but there are some headphones for example (not yours) that have severe spikes in some frequencies.

Overall we are kinda back to square one:

Some people like it, some are sensitive to it. Some prefer it!

Johnstaf

CyberGene FWIW, most of the time I’m on headphones: my Sennheiser HD650, when listening to music and playing the piano.

HD650 will let you hear all you need. For something like very deep bass everyone will look at meters anyway to make sure something isn't getting through that shouldn't, even in a major studio. Unless you're mixing EDM or recordings of earthquakes you should be ok. 😉

CyberGene Anyway, my point is, our brains are powerfully adaptive machines. Perfecting your audio equipment is for pleasure. But unless it’s a really crappy audio system, our brain can neutralize the offsets/coloration in an amazing way to allow us hear everything that’s there and make an opinion of whether a piano sound is good or bad.

You can even recognise someone's voice on a cheap radio next door with the widow open and heavy traffic. 😀

srodrigo

David Lai Well, I've heard countless recordings of pianos, and also acoustic instruments in person. So I'm well informed as to how a piano sounds like, from the various recordings and in person experiences I've heard and played. So when I hear a digital version by a sampler or a modeler, I compare with the acoustic by default. So whatever sounds like a piano isn't an opinion. If you really want to insist on that, then it'll be an educated / informed / founded opinion, not just any self opinion that I make up on the spot.

Do you realise that other pianists who also have heard countless recordings of pianos and acoustic instruments in person prefer Pianoteq, right?

David Lai

srodrigo Really? I know there are people who are supporting their work, like Phil Best. But it would be interesting to see if he's saying that he likes the product for what it is, or is he only saying it and using PianoTeq because he's working with the developers.

johanibraaten

I don’t think it’s totally unreasonable to assume that there are some people that are experienced with acoustic pianos that also appreciate Pianoteq and that some of those even prefer it over sampled VI:s.

dikrek

David Lai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_gustibus_non_est_disputandum

dikrek

David Lai what should make it obvious to you that something is off should be exactly your incredulity that anyone could possibly like it.

This is why I mentioned my cilantro theory in the other thread.

Cilantro haters (the ones genetically incapable of liking it) absolutely can’t understand why anyone could possibly like cilantro.

Unfortunately I failed in figuring out exactly what it is that causes the dislike In this case.

Like I said -

In Emmet’s case he still thinks it sounds like pipes and gongs even in the final version.

So whatever is going on, it’s even stronger in Emmet’s case than yours.

dikrek

David Lai I’ll use a different analogy:

Humans with IQ over 160 can find it hard to integrate with society and enjoy themselves.

Pete14

David Lai I know there are people who are supporting their work, like Phil Best. But it would be interesting to see if he's saying that he likes the product for what it is, or is he only saying it and using PianoTeq because he's working with the developers.

What are you implying, David?

Surely, you’re not saying that Mr. Best works for Modartt?

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