FLKeys Lachnit MK23

porco_rosso · 2021-11-16T09:39:44+00:00

Hello, in the search for an upgrade for my Roland FP-30 I stumbled over the MIDI Controller Lachnit MK23 from FLKeys, Vienna. It's a small manufacturer founded and led by Friedrich Lachnit, a former Bösendorfer concert technician and after that the former head of their piano electronics department who led the CEUS Bösendorfer project. They use the Fatar TP/40Wood action as their base, refurbish the key surfaces and regulate it key for key according to concert grand guidelines and use a non-contact light sensor technology instead of rubber contacts resulting in a seemingly unparalleled MIDI accuracy, supporting also Hi-Res MIDI (up to 4096 steps). There a different knobs for changing the touch curves and dynamics without ever reducing the full MIDI range, the full range is always retained. In addition there is a three-way pedal that also uses continuous touchless light sensors. One can see perform the great Stefan Mendl on the Lachnit (probably the MK22 Imperial Version with the extra base keys) on this Video presenting the VSL Synchron Steinway: I find this very interesting as my main critic point to the Kawai VPC1 and Kawai MP11SE is not the feeling of the action itself - the GF1 especially feels very authentic for a digital piano action. It's the insufficient MIDI accuracy and reliability as well as range. As documented in various postings in german and english speaking forums the MP11(SE) does not send MIDI values under 25/30, which resulted in expressive restrictions in the < p range for me when using to virtual instruments like Pianoteq, which I could not really fix with velocity curve edits. It results in a more obvious feeling of playing a digital instruments that can not handle my input the way it was supposed to. Thats where my Roland FP30 is very good, especially regarding its price: It uses the whole MIDI velocity 0 - 127 range very reliably and I found it in that way more expressive allowing for more controlled nuances and color (closer to an good acoustic instrument) than the Kawai action. But the Roland action itself is not perfect, thats where the Kawais are better: The Roland is a bit sluggish and slow, not as smooth and it's more difficult to accelerate the hammers above the let-off (difficult to describe, bot on an acoustic piano you can "throw" the hammer using your acceleration before your finger reaches the ground if necessary - thats way better simulated in the GF1 for example). For example playing the black keys staccato in p/pp is too sluggish and difficult on the Roland compared to an acoustic piano action or the GF. So I think maybe the Lachnit MK23 would give me a faster, more responsive and direct superior playability compared to the FP-30 and an extremely accurate MIDI response vor very nuanced playing, especially combined with Pianoteq but also sample libraries with very many samples layers. But it's impossible to test the Lachnit and there is also not much information on the internet. There are some references (but some of them only in german) on their website in which people claim superiority to the VPC1 and even Yamaha GT/N1/2/3. But thats their website of course… There is also an interesting About and FAQ on their website. It's pretty costly. MK23 (3990€) + MIDI High Resolution CC#88 Dynamic resolution (198€) + pedal (264€) + transport to Germany (80 €) = at least 4532 €. But it's handcrafted in Austria with a seemingly high built quality and the components seem to be resourced in Austria and the EU only so the price seems justified, especially if the keyboard and MIDI is that good and works for, let's say, 20 years+. Does anybody of you has ever seen or played or heard anything additional of the Lachnit keyboards?

TomLC

I wonder if you could buy a 10 yr old K200 silent piano to use with a VST for 5000€?

Gombessa

TomLC I love this idea. A few years ago, I was looking for used pianos with MIDI/silent functions exactly for this purpose, on the assumption that the electronics are quickly deemed "obsolete" and you could maybe find one for cheap. I didn't see anything that stood out as an absolute steal though.

Would love to know if anyone here uses an acoustic almost exclusively in silent mode with a VST.

EssBrace

porco_rosso Yes, I asked myself why they didn't use a GF action as a base… would have been even better for sure.

It's been done. Ravenworks VPC1.

HZPiano

EssBrace It's been done. Ravenworks VPC1

Hello,

😲 Ravenworks don't replace the VPC1 RM3 Grand II with GF actions do they?!

Cheers and happy playing,

HZPiano

Gombessa Would love to know if anyone here uses an acoustic almost exclusively in silent mode with a VST.

Hello,

Gamma1734 (who not yet made it over here as it seems), if I understand correctly, solely uses his Kawai Kx00 upright as his MIDI controller -- and loves it that way.

Cheers and happy acoustics,

vagfilm

HZPiano Ravenworks don't replace the VPC1 RM3 with GF actions don't they?!

Of course they do... But if the ravenworks vpc1 was 3 times the price of a vpc1, they only need to buy a ca79, strip the action, replace the sensors, and charge you 2 times the price of a nv10... For that price, I can do it too 😊😊😊

n-player

Ravenworks Digital VPC1 details

https://nebula.wsimg.com/7563cfd9d30c030a316233d822a5f31e?AccessKeyId=FF959A32CC82E300548C&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Frédéric L

n-player Whilst MIDI over USB COULD run faster in theory, the MIDI Association wrote that controllers typically throttle to 31.25 probably to guarantee compatibility. (MIDI Association wrote in several posts that they never found a MIDI instrument outputting at a higher speed). So whilst there may be controllers running faster MIDI over USB, I have never seen any evidence.

I would be interested by references. The only reference I have is the MIDI over USB specifications where I read :

The USB transfers MIDI data at rate hundreds of times faster than the original MIDI 1.0 hardware specification. In addition, this specification takes advantage of the USB's bandwidth and flexible data handling to enable the transfer of many "virtual" cables worth of MIDI data.

It seems weird but not impossible that a MIDI controllers throttle their USB port which are designed for communication to a PC (if not named « to PC ») which can handle high speed streams.

Let’s hope MIDI2.0 will make (soon) controllers compatible with higher speed.

HZPiano

vagfilm Then, how would it be to just buy a CA79 and give it a custom-designed vinyl wrap instead? 😁

And if you leave the legs, pedal bar, and rear panel off, it makes a nice back-breaking stage piano just as well 😬

Cheers and happy useless ideas,

n-player

Frédéric L

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=13786652&postcount=37

RIP

n-player I am also very interested, but the references you provided are just "a random guy on the internet" aren't they?

Most importantly, bandwidth is not speed. Speed is (the inverse of) latency. You can have (and in fact often do have for internet) extremely large band connections, which are horribly "slow" from a latency point of view, to the point of not being usable for anything "real time" (such as video conferencing).

Speaking of bandwidth: suppose one plays semiquavers (sixteenth note) at a speed of quarter-note=180, i.e. 3 quarter notes per second and hence 12 sixteenth note per second. And suppose that one does that with 8 fingers at the same time, or 96 note-on per second. At 3-byte per note-on message, that's 288 bytes per second, counting also the note off it's 576. Put in pedal, double the tempo (if you can play that way) or whatever you want, but that's a far cry from the 31.25Kbaud limit! So as far as I can tell there is absolutely no problem in bandwidth -- however there can be in latency. Even though as @MacMacMac and others have said it's not the MIDI transport the main source of latency.

RIP

porco_rosso But I live in an apartment.

Got it (you did not need to provide all of those details 🤣)

I suppose you tried the felt strip and other sound insulation techniques (e.g. sound absorbing materials under the piano casters and between the wall and the soundboard right?) and that was not enough, right?

If so, then digital must be…. perhaps keep what you have for now and save a year or two more to get a NV-5 or N1x?

n-player

RIP "Random guy on the internet" linked above has reasonable credentials:

Chairman of MIDI 2.0 Working Group.
Co-Author of USB MIDI.
Member of Technical Standards Board of the MIDI Association.
Consultant for MIDI and Audio Products, Formerly Roland R&D.

Deleted

porco_rosso Okay. I love acoustic pianos. In Germany I could buy a young (80s, 90s) german upright with the size of 116 - 124 cm of a brand as Schimmel, Grotrian-Steinweg, Ibach or a slightly older (60s, 70s) Bechstein upright for 6000 € - even at good piano stores. Here in Berlin someone at ebay kleinanzeigen sells privately a Steingraeber & Söhne 124 (!) for 6999 € from the 80s in perfectly fine condition. There are plenty of nice pianos here. Availability and price are not the problem. I would be perfectly content with the sound and the action of such an upright. I also have the space (even for grand up to 2m).

But I live in an apartment. A total of 9 residential units live in my house entrance, including a friendly policewoman who often works night shifts and understandably wants to sleep in the mornings. A nice young couple lives above me with a baby who is only a few months old. Below me is a very nice single mother with a behavioral problematic, sometimes aggressive son. Everyone is considerate of each other, that basically works well. And now I'm supposed to (and I've already tried it with a rented Hailun upright...) rob the policewoman of sleep after a night shift in the morning? Or wake the baby in the afternoon? Or upset the boy with repetitive practice of individual passages (he's sick and can't help it) that it is even more difficult for the mother? All of this is much more important than my piano playing. And even if you agree upon on a golden time window from 3:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m., you don't have exactly that time every day, and an hour is not particularly long if you buy an instrument for thousands of Euros. I would have to move away if in doubt. But that really is not an option. Acoustic pianos are just too loud. I could not play them.

Your description shows a certain unhealthy character trait: You make the problems of strangers your own problems. Sharing a house with people doesn't mean you have to share your life with them. You don't choose your neighbors, but you choose who you share your life with. You shouldn't know all this stuff you mentioned above. You need to set boundaries or you will run into mental health issues at some point.

For example some of us have neighbors too, with some of them having an extensive (noisy) sex life, but if you start thinking about if your neighbors are satisfied with it, that's none of your business. And it's the same with your piano practice.

Overall you are in pretty great spot actually. Where you live an apartment is not considered being a "sleep cell" only like in Japan, the home of the digital piano. Singing and making music is considered being part of living at home, because unlike Asian ant countries, you're not considered to exist only for commuting between work and sleep.

The human voice and acoustic instruments are privileged, as they are allowed to make as much noise as they are physically able to. Only if you introduce electronic amplification, you're limited to the volume of the human voice (and you're supposed to run all your electronic gadgets at that level: your TV, your guitar amplifier and of course your digital piano). But there is no landlord preventing you from putting a concert grand in your flat or simply singing fortissimo after work. Of course, we are considerate people, so we don't go nine-footer, but with a reasonable 42" upright.

CyberGene

Deleted
I'm in a similar situation as @porco_rosso and understand him pretty well. While I basically agree with you that technically other people's problems are their problems, this can lead to everybody just doing what they want and when they want because it will be me sleeping late in the morning (which is what I do since I'm a night owl) and being mad at people making noises without any consideration. I mean, as simplified as it may seem, I try to follow the good old Confucius' advice of "Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you."

But I'm also working towards moving into a house (outside the capital) where I can have an acoustic piano.

RIP

Deleted Your description shows a certain unhealthy character trait: You make the problems of strangers your own problems.

IMHO it's called empathy and it's a good trait to have.

FWIW, I lived in Europe for many years and it's common to know (and worry) about these details. And being limited in the noise one can make, way more than you say in your message. It is pretty common to have such limits sometimes as tacit agreements, sometimes as strictly enforced rules (and anything in between). The "quiet hours" in one place I lived were 16h per day!!!!

As I told @porco_rosso it was unnecessary to post these details on the forum, on that I agree with you, he could have simply said "neighbors" and that would have been enough

RIP

n-player "Random guy on the internet" linked above has reasonable credentials:

Ok, thanks for clarifying (it was not clear to me he has those credentials).

In any case, my bandwidth vs latency objections still stand.

Deleted

RIP it's a good trait to have

It's really bad for your own mental health to make your neighbor's problems your own problems. And by robbing yourself of proper piano practice, you won't improve any of these people, who made their own bad life choices and suffer the consequences. These are not your responsibility.

RIP As I told @eddiepiano it was unnecessary to post these details on the forum

It's not about posting such details on a forum, knowing that much is already completely wrong and calls for counseling. And buying a house won't change anything about that, you're just going to pick up all the problems of your suburban neighbors as well. Don't do that!

vagfilm

Deleted It's really bad for your own mental health to make your neighbor's problems your own problems.

And who told you that? Being empathic or non empathic are personality traits that have almost nothing to do with mental health. Being empathic and attempting to be the opposite, or vice versa, that is what is more probable to cause mental struggles. There are tons of research on the good effect of empathy on mental health, and there is also a even larger TON of research of lack of empathy as hallmark of a myriad of mental disorders.

I agree that high levels of empathy are known to be correlated with anxiety disorders (btw, this effect is normally observed in empathy towards family members or significant others, not towards neighbours) but there is nothing wrong with having normal expression of empathy throughout life. And it is far more difficult to be overempathic than it is to be over apathic.

David B

Deleted Your description shows a certain unhealthy character trait: You make the problems of strangers your own problems.

Joe, being aware of your neighbors' general lifestyle habits is usually unavoidable when you live in such close proximity (the same building), unless you're completely antisocial. Wanting to be considerate is a sign of good mental health (IMO).

God Bless,
David

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