Modern D vs Pianoteq vs The People

As a Sunday clacker (note1) here are my impressions:

• Modern D may be very good, perhaps even "the ultimate" VST, but it's not for me because it does not have a demo and because I'm fed up with both Mac and Windows computers and I would accept only a Linux version or a tablet (don't say they don't have enough storage or CPU, since some of them have more storage or CPU than my desktop). And by the way, I wonder how this compares with @dore_m Experience pianos rather than the others you mentioned. @David Lai you might tell them this feedback (Linux/Tablet and giving demo) if you care. WRT the demo, some people would say "you can't download 18GB for a demo", so let me pre-emtively respond: a) my download speed allows that pretty easily, and I'm on the cheaper/slower tier of my internet provider, and the vendor could put it on a peer-to-peer network if they can't afford the extra load on their servers b) I would be happy to entertain a demo with say only half the keys working for 9GB, even more "crippled" than the pianoteq demo.
• Some people love, some people hate Pianoteq. A few (or maybe a lot, but they "look like" they are a few simply because they are just not vocal?) like it for what it is or at least can live with it. I am in the latter category. I agree with what most (or are they just the most vocal?) people on this forum say, i.e. that the sound is unsatisfactory. But then everything else that I could try with a demo or soundcloud recordings (excluding Modern D which I did not have time to listen to) has an unsatisfactory sound too. Each one sound is unsatisfactory in a different way, so I picked the one that I could live with, and which I like for other characteristics (I like its user interface a lot, again, not perfect but much better than others that I tried, it runs on Linux, both Intel and ARM) and policies (I love that they have a demo, which I used to make my mind before deciding to buy it).
• If you can't live (and let live) with the previous bullet, I'm very sorry for you and I'm not going to engage in a live and let die thread
• Speaking of which, I'm really appalled to see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of messages on the Modern D and Pianoteq so devoid of useful content (heck, even devoid of useful opinions!). Well, I'm sure there is some useful content in there, but it's so buried in repeated and repeated and repeated attacks to each other's point of view that makes me really wonder if you guys have a life. I mean we somewhat drove off the site KFB and SP because they flooded the forum with lots of repetitive comments and then we do it ourselves? What a shame! I think this is just a self-feeding trolling, from which we have no way out until "the world will explode" as somewhat I said already so I won't repeat myself (note2)

(note1): in Italian, a very common derogatory way of addressing people that do something at a very low level only when they have time, the dictionary says it's the same in English, but I've never heard it in 20 years - so note that I am purposefully insulting myself

(note2): that conversation was about an off-topic politics discussion and this is on-topic, but I see the same attitude and it sadden me in the same way, and mutatis mutande I feel about these new threads exactly I expressed at the time, e.g. at the link below.

#102136

RIP Interesting, so you are a Linux user. I don't know if UVI supports it, at least it doesn't officially say so, so I'm afraid you are missing out on a very wonderful playing experience for a piano VST!

That said, unfortunately my experiences are limited, but I've never heard of UVI platform libraries doing demos. I may be wrong, so sorry. I don't know that both Universal Audio's Ravel and VSL's Synchron have demos, and they all use iLock, like these libraries on UVI WorkStation. So maybe a demo or timed trial wouldn't be a bad idea because it's basically limited access as put through the iLock license manager. Hmm, maybe this is something I could email VI Labs (not the same company) about.

Still, thanks for sharing.

For me, as a professional musician, what I heard really can speak a lot into whether or not I might like it, so a demo isn't needed for me. But I know that not everyone is like this, so I think probably providing a timed trial is a good thing.

David Lai Del Vento Interesting, so you are a Linux user.

Yes, and I won't expect them to care about Linux. But I can live with a tablet (even an iPad), and I think that desire is shared by a larger swath of their possible user base, and I am surprised that in this day and age they don't offer that option.

@RIP I'm getting reports that my pianos are working with SFizz, which I think can be used on Linux. DM me if you want to test something. Thanks for even mentioning me in a comparison.....

If I was really mad about having a good software piano (I am), the only deciding factor for me would be the piano itself, not the operating system it runs on.

Again, this shows how different we are. I hate Linux (I maintain Linux servers and VM-s at work, so I’m closer to power user than a newbie) and I hate Windows too but if I knew the best virtual piano was available only on Linux/Windows, then I’d definitely have a machine with that OS for that piano alone.

But OK, I get it some people use only Linux, or can’t afford to buy a new SSD drive, etc. But that doesn’t make Pianoteq better in what’s important: the piano sound. Why then get offended about criticism? It’s just software. Do you think it’s about not offending Modartt? In the Internet era one should be able to grow thick skin. It’s not about honor and mutual respect, they are a company making money, not a charity after all.

CyberGene In the Internet era one should be able to grow thick skin. It’s not about honor and mutual respect they are a company making money, not a charity after all.

I find the tribalism about things like this very odd. I'm not referring to anyone here. Some people are offended by other peoples' operating system choices.

I use a Mac because I need to be able to use Final Cut Pro (very rarely). I don't care.

dore_m DM me if you want to test something.

I need to first finish the controller, which as you can see from my other thread (last weekend) it's not done yet. But I had this SFizz idea already and intended to contact you about it "one day" which I will do when ready.

CyberGene Again, this shows how different we are.

Not completely

CyberGene if I knew the best virtual piano was available only on Linux/Windows, then I’d definitely have a machine with that OS

I would do that for an iPad, so we are on the same page there. I do have a computer which dual boots windows, andI used a MAC (back in the Intel's day) for work. Every time I used them there was something very simple that I wanted to do which I spent inordinate amount of time to either learn that it was impossible (Mac) or that it required installing a (often paid) closed software of dubious provenance with possibly a virus inside (Windows). All very simple stuff. So I got fed and don't want to go into that rabbit hole. With the iPhone (and I assume being the same for the iPad), I hate how some things are, but at least they just work, so I can live with it.

CyberGene But that doesn’t make Pianoteq better in what’s important: the piano sound. Why then get offended about criticism?

Well, obviously many people think its sound is great, and some (including myself) think it's differently bad but not worse than other virtual instruments they tried. As you said in one of the few messages I read on the other thread, music is emotion an that's why people get emotional. I understand (and even "support"!!) that. What I think is horrible is the attitude "I am right and you are wrong" which the vast majority of pianoteq lovers and pianoteq haters have. I mean, love-what-you-love, be thankful it exists and (hopefully) that you can afford it. Explain why you love it to others, if you wish, but if they don't love-what-you-love, you can still love the people even if their "tastes" are different!

Johnstaf I find the tribalism about things like this very odd.

Exactly! As I explained in the post I linked (and perhaps a few others) I believe it's a social-media effect in which you like-dislike things and so "the system" continues to feed you content more and more polarizing, basically "educating" you to become more extreme and intolerant

Well, this is a forum about pianos. You can’t do much about it on a forum. Occasional recording, share some tips. But mostly talking 😃 And people like to be argumentative on forums.

Honestly, I don’t make it a big deal that there’s some rough kicking in the forum. At least, it’s about pianos and people are passionate about pianos. Also, I don’t draw much parallels between this kind of repetitive behavior and that of SP because the latter would somehow just suffocate the forum and people would stop participating at all. I’m not a psychologist, so I can’t explain why that is but apparently there’s something different.

CyberGene The difference here is that it's like arguing about about pianos with your friends in the pub -if only we had such friends to argue with. There's nothing unpleasant or disrespectful -usually. 🤣

RIP Dore's Pianobook libraries (as any SFZ library) work with Sfizz (+ Carla or another plugin manager). SFZ can also be played with Liquidsfz (standalone from the terminal) or Linuxsampler (+ Qsampler).
If you remane the samples, Dore's libraries can also be played on BitKlavier.
You should give BitKlavier a try with the Princeton Steinway D libraries. That's what I'm using now, and they sound a magnitude better than Pianoteq. BitKlavier also allows you to add resonances and a lot of other neat stuff.
You can install a Linux native version of BitKlavier both of Debian (or derivates) and Fedora.

Hi,

i don't understand the Pianoteq vs Sampling war.

I use both Sampling + Modeling

VI LABS MODERN D is for me the best regulated and tuned Steinway, and right velocity map. And best mics/

and for resonance, Pianoteq is the best when you sidechained a real sampled Piano inside to produce Resonance.

And Sustain and Sympathetic Resonance should be modeled because it's the same FX

Sustain is as if you press all undamped keys and plays them all undamped : it's a big Sympathetic resonance between all keys. And when you release the pedal down to up, if some keys are still down undamped, you are partial Sustain resonance that is sympathetic Resonance that still ring/sound. it's important to simulate that (as important than half pedal)

I'm disapointed that marvelous MODERN D doesn't simulate that right resonance with pedal down to up transition, for the keys still down/undamped like a real PIANO.

So today i'm very happy with my Yamaha N1X, VI LABS MODERN D incredible new Steinway D, New York Steinway D that sound like a good Hamburg Europa Steinway. it's incredible. and i'm Happy with Pianoteq 8 to use is for Damper resonance release of my N1X (with midi script) and for real Sympathetic Resonance/ Sustain (same fx but colour and number of overtones depend on number undamped keys).

So nice days for Piano lovers : We have a marvel (Modern D) and the way to use Pianoteq in Logic 11 just as Sympathetic resonator with all midi FX with the sidechaines sound of any sampled PIANO , repedal, release and all..

So i use MODERND + pianoteq in LOGIC 11, sampling and modeling, and it's sound more natural than IVORY 3…. that have the same approach (modeling+sampling). But in Ivory 3 i hear like a cut off, filters, not natural……

The best Steinway D natural sound is : VI LABS MODERN D with player 414 mics and some others mics with.

So this war is useless : take the best of the 2 worlds (Sampling and modeling)

Before VSL D-274 was my favorite : but don't understand why VSL don't listen to customers just for silent key, right repedalling, right Sympathetic resonance….. and why their robot is wrong in velocity curve (to much FFF not human)

Don't understand that Paul of VSL don't understand or don't wan't Sympathetic Resonance and transitions between pedal down and up sound and others... i was disapointed. They should take a lokk at VI LABS way…. and even Ivory 3 way…. and my Sampling+ PIanoteq soluce……. to make a resonance software for Synchron Piano….

And Hope VI LABS will fix Sympathetic Resonance in Modernd D so that it work like Modernd U, between pedal down and up transition when keys are still down and undamped.

Regards,

Olivier F.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/2cz7yl7o0ncuoxshy92fu/ACD6_GuCnEoHGIFn-78a6EM?rlkey=xg0un0scjy937rbnq6a63mum3&e=1&st=rabq2ztn&dl=0

amc252 last year I also successfully used sforzando in Linux via wine. Not with Dore's libraries. But I would be surprised if it doesn't work.

@RIP A few months ago, I've tried a VSL demo with wine. Surprisingly iLock was working fine, registered demo license successfully. Synchron Pianos even made some sound after the initial install but then it stopped generating any sound on subsequent runs. To be honest, even if it worked I probably wouldn't pay for it because every update would be a dice roll.

Recently I got a used surfacebook to run Mobilesheets and Pianoteq. Screen is OK for reading sheet music. But Windows is almost unbearable. It required lots of fiddling for audio (asio, midi tools etc.), even more than Linux. I am fine with that. But now it is a constant struggle. It keeps turning on antivirus, disturbing the audio. There is another source introducing latency even with low cpu use. I suspect some poorly implemented device driver. The hunt for it continues. Until I give up and slap a Linux on it. But touchscreen/stylus in Linux is also not great 🙁

RIP

In Dutch, we have that same "Sunday …" context 🙂.

I can relate to a lot you say here, I detest the attacks and such nonsense, I do not enjoy having to scroll past all of that to pick out the bits of actually good bits of news, experiences and tips. Likewise the already-always Pianoteq (versus X and/or in itself) conversations that lead nowhere. I simply put the recent Pianoteq thread on ignore. All of this is just more Windows vs. Apple vs. Linux; Ford vs. Chevvy; Opel vs. Volkswagen; Yamaha vs. Kawai uselessness.

About Modern D, you mention not having listened to it yet for lack of time. Should you find time and some gusto, I suggest you do before somewhat dismissing it as "cannot be good either".

I didn't buy Modern D because I don't need it, I currently need my budget for other inspiring activities in my life, and last but not least I'm not much of a Steinway fan. I think technically and sound wise it is extremely good, but it just has no priority for me. If they had done a Bösendorfer 225 in exactly this way and in exactly this quality, I immediately would have gone checking if my PayPal account is still alive.

If @VILabs would have made the step to provide demo licenses, I would surely have cheered them for that and probably would have made some time to try it out.

For now, my tried, trusted and loved Modern U is still quite enough for me. Plays great, sounds great, slim, flexible and resource friendly, I'm in a happy place with it.

Cheers and happy shared sentiments,

HZ

David Lai For me, as a professional musician, what I heard really can speak a lot into whether or not I might like it, so a demo isn't needed for me.

That is quite a gift/skill. Your sensory acuity is, out of obvious necessity, shifted to other senses than sight, significantly broadening and deepening your hearing spectrum compared to us mere mortals in this area. Or so I assume.

In my experience (and my brother's), demos of virtual instruments can be really succulent and attractive, but as soon as such instruments are under my/our own fingers, they may fall flat on their face or even be downright horrible. I won't mention names here but unfortunately have a few such purchases to my name -- thankfully not as many as some other enthusiasts who literally lost thousands of dollars/euros/other currency on misleading and polished-up marketing materials and accompanying demo sound/video material.

I've been lucky to trust @David B with regard to Modern U, for without it I would have abandoned digital piano years ago. But I also told myself not to purchase any more virtual stuff without proper test opportunities under my own fingers and on my own gear.

Although I couldn't "live with" either Pianoteq or VSL pianos, I do salute those companies for demo- and/or money back options.

So indeed, come on @VILabs , show your greatness in this aspect as well.

Cheers,

HZ

HZPiano That is quite a gift/skill. Your sensory acuity is, out of obvious necessity, shifted to other senses than sight, significantly broadening and deepening your hearing spectrum compared to us mere mortals in this area

bro's a real life matt mordak🔥

HZPiano If @VILabs would have made the step to provide demo licenses, I would surely have cheered them for that and probably would have made some time to try it out

yea, do it do it @VILabs

CyberGene And people like to be argumentative on forums.

That is fine and I enjoy it too. What I find absurd is the very clear (to me) attitude by some people in some contexts to post a content that sounds like "the other person is an idiot and here's why" over and over again. Admittedly the same people in other contexts behave "normally" and that is why I have not quit this forum as I have quit other ones (and as I'm glad I never joined Facebook or Twitter in the first place).

Johnstaf The difference here is that it's like arguing about about pianos with your friends in the pub

Maybe I'm overreacting, perhaps because my limited time makes me participate only during weekends and so I just scratch the surface and don't get the real attitude but only the apparent one. What appeared to me was that people were insulting each other, with the excuse of the piano, instead of providing useful information such as "I like this because…."

In fact I thank people participating in this thread for providing a lot of information and nudging in a clear and effective way, about things that I did know and a couple that I did not even know they existed. Now I can't wait to try them all (including Modern D, especially if they make a demo available), and I'm restraining myself from doing so (for now! just for now!) because I need to complete my controller first, otherwise I can't test them properly and I can't use them much (okay, I could on the Korg Minikey, but that's a bit restrictive….)

HZPiano Should you find time and some gusto, I suggest you do before somewhat dismissing it as "cannot be good either".

Will definitely do, and to be super clear, I wasn't dismissing it like that, but more on the "I can't stand the OS where it runs" (c'mon at least on iPad pro? that has plenty of fast storage and a beast of CPU!). I was dismissing other virtual instruments in that way, because I tried them or listened to their demos and found them better than pianoteq in some (sound) aspects and worse than pianoteq in some other (sound) aspects, without a clear winner.

HZPiano But I also told myself not to purchase any more virtual stuff without proper test opportunities under my own fingers and on my own gear.

+1

RIP (okay, I could on the Korg Minikey, but that's a bit restrictive….)

Oh come on!

You could do an excellent bit of "Twinkle, Twinkle…" on the Minikey. That would provide a total, utter and properly exhaustive test of any virtual instrument.

😁

HZ

[deleted] Wine (sometimes in combination with yabridge) can work with Windows VSTs just fine.
I have recently ran Spitfire LABS Autograph Grand and the free Numa Player. However, neither impressed me compared to my current setup. Kontakt player also words on wine. I have never tried Sforzando since Linux native SFZ players are quite satisfactory for my needs.

In the spirit of Olivier, who once said, “I don’t understand the Pianoteq vs. Sampling war.”

I propose a truce, so long as we accept that the Modern D isn’t “magnificent,” but rather good-enough, gets-the-job-done, and/or another tool in the arsenal; however, if my humble proposal is meant with more attacks, I shall have no other option but to retaliate!

God is magnificent (and perhaps even Jesus), so please don’t hold your “tools” to the same standard, because guess what? Jesus walked over water, and God, well, we all know what he did, and your Modern D is in essence a bunch of recordings of a piano (I don’t mean this disrespectfully), but can it turn water into wine?

But I digress, and my initial offer still stands…..

IMHO!