Cheap DP v Expensive MIDI

pianow · 2024-08-28T04:37:40+00:00

yea, i have a native instruments komplete kontrol s88 mk2, i was thinking about a yamaha c145/roland fp30x instead, cause lots of people told me that digital pianos are superior to the midi controllers ok, but is an entry level digital piano also superior to a flagship midi controller? wdyt

_sem_

pianow release velocity data

This seems to be quite specific for different DPs, it is important if the particular VSTs one would use understand the sent midi properly.

pianow escapement

Only the Yamaha AG / Kawai NV have actual escapement in their piano-like key actions, which may be of single (upright) or double (grand) variety. DPs essentially don't need escapement, because there is nothing wrong with the hammer staying at the terminal position in a DP opposed to an AP where it would mute the string. Some DPs have escapement simulated with friction notches, but the value of this debatable/subjective.

pianow graded notes

Graded weights are used to emulate the feel of APs where the low notes are heavier because they must have bigger mechanisms. This is also not required in a DP and some people don't like weight grading or find it artificial (not really close to the real thing). For example Nord Grand has a variant of the Kawai RHIII keybed, but presumably with escapement and weight grading removed.

The bottom line, if one often/occasionally plays a particular acoustic piano (at home / at teacher's place / at recitals) it is a good idea to find a DP that somehow relates well to that piano. If there is no particular AP but one just doesn't want to feel lost if seated at an AP on occasions, then tour some stores and try out different APs to get the idea what they are like and how DPs compare. Studying features online doesn't help much, it is important how they feel/sound. If one doesn't plan to play acoustic pianos, it doesn't really matter how DPs compare to them, it only matters how well you can play whatever you want to play (upmarket DPs mostly actually feel better to play, except for epiano/organ and such where the higher dynamic weight may be fatiguing).

Mindbullets

I liked the action on my FP30 for the price I paid for it ($500 USD for a gently-used FP30 with triple pedal stand and bench). I've seen folks describe the playing experience a little bit like running through the shallow end of a pool, and it's a fair description. It's among the best actions you'll find for entry-level DPs. Just not as snappy as a well-regulated grand.

I upgraded to the Yamaha CP88 a couple of years ago, and while it's technically heavier (more force required to depress a key), it feels much snappier and less fatiguing to play, and dynamic control is excellent. There's no escapement but you can find similar action with escapement (if you want it) in the Yamaha P515. It's a good practice board for the 6' Kawai I occasionally play on.

I'm not sure what the 2nd-hand market looks like where you are, but that's where I've had the best luck myself. Local sellers are typically much cheaper than buying off Reverb, and I've been able to test-drive the actions before buying.

Roland tends to have the most complete MIDI implementation, but I'd look at any of the following if they're available to you: Numa X GT, Roland FP90(x), Yamaha P515/P525, newer Casio models (haven't tried myself, but hearing good things), and/or the Kawai VPC1/MP11/MP11SE (though you probably know Kawai isn't known for their quality control these days).

David B

Mindbullets Roland tends to have the most complete MIDI implementation, but I'd look at any of the following if they're available to you: Numa X GT,

In my opinion Numa is better because 0-127 is accessible without any adjustments to the settings and it has individual key sensitivity adjustments. With velocitester and single key midi adjustment feature, you can end up with a regulation that looks like this.

https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/1357-velocitester-numa-x-gt-and-single-key-edit

Numa gives you more midi flexibility than Roland so I give it the advantage as a midi controller.

God bless,
David

Mindbullets

David B Ah, gotcha. I wasn't sure how comprehensive the Numa MIDI implementation was -- does it send release velocity, also?

David B

Mindbullets I wasn't sure how comprehensive the Numa MIDI implementation was -- does it send release velocity, also?

Yes.

God Bless,
David

Mindbullets

Nice!

jdg78

_sem_ The bottom line, if one often/occasionally plays a particular acoustic piano (at home / at teacher's place / at recitals) it is a good idea to find a DP that somehow relates well to that piano. If there is no particular AP but one just doesn't want to feel lost if seated at an AP on occasions, then tour some stores and try out different APs to get the idea what they are like and how DPs compare. Studying features online doesn't help much, it is important how they feel/sound. If one doesn't plan to play acoustic pianos, it doesn't really matter how DPs compare to them, it only matters how well you can play whatever you want to play (upmarket DPs mostly actually feel better to play, except for epiano/organ and such where the higher dynamic weight may be fatiguing).

Couldn't have said it better myself. Unless you are having to move back and forth between acoustic and digital pianos on a regular basis, or plan to transition to an acoustic at some point in the future, just go with whatever digital action feels best to you and gives you maximum expressive control.

kawafanboi

all current actions are extremely low tech 10 year old junk heaps.

among the heaps, RHC is king of all plastic actions from an engineering standpoint.

David B

kawafanboi among the heaps, RHC is king of all plastic actions from an engineering standpoint.

Can you elaborate on why you feel the RHC is the best? It's Kawai's bottom of the line action and it's on their entry level digital. Judging by the picture it looks kind of cheap and plasticky.

God bless,
David

CyberGene

David B RHC is the entry-level action in the ES110. It feels rather crappy and is unnaturally light in touch which can probably be appreciated by people who have wrist problems but other than that it’s nothing special.

HZPiano

CyberGene

This!

🍻

johanibraaten

David B Personally, I don't need internal speakers or sounds. I just want the best action and midi capability. Unfortunately, I don't know of a midi controller that has a top tier action in it. Therefore, the next best thing is a stage piano. That's why I have the Numa X GT. No internal speakers, decent onboard sounds and layering ability, and a top tier action (TP400).

The TP400 looks like an interesting action for sure. I know that it can be found in the StudioLogic Numa X GT and Dexibell Vivo s10 but do you know if there are other slab pianos that have this action?

HZPiano

johanibraaten

Hi!

I don't know of other slabs, but I have strong suspicions it is used in:

Higher GEWA model(s) that feature(s) their "Concert Pianist II keyboard";
Maene Doutreligne Sonata, essentially based on one of those GEWAs.

Cheers!

johanibraaten

HZPiano

Tanks HZ. It’s good to know if I might find any of the models to try out. Both Dexibel and StudioLogic are hard to find around here.

David B

johanibraaten I only know of Dexibell and the Numa GT. I remember seeing a video of some fella at Dexibell playing around with a bare TP400 action. I assume they went with it based on what other people have said.

God Bless,
David

pianow

_sem_ Superior in what way?

The A88 MkII has the same keys as the FP10/FP30X.

im talking about playability

the arturia keylab 88 mk2 also uses the same action NI used for their s88

but those two are incredibly different, the keylab is somewhat sluggish and overly solitary to play, the s88 on the other hand is quite good although it doesn't match any acoustic piano that I've played (even the cheapest ones) but that's to be expected right? two different type of mechanisms

but still i need a BETTER keyboard

jdg78

johanibraaten I'm also not aware of any other models currently using this action.

To be honest, I'm a bit surprised that Studiologic hasn't yet released a pure midi controller version with the TP400W action, similar to the SL88 Grand.

If they did - and priced it under $1,500 USD - I think it would be a much more attractive option than the overpriced Kawai VPC-1, at least for the US market.

johanibraaten

David B

jdg78

Thanks. I agree, a well priced midi controller with the TP400 would be a great addition to the marked. I also think a slab piano with built in speakers to compete with Roland FP90X, Kawai ES920 or Yamaha P-525 would be great. For me that would be a highly interesting product.

kawafanboi

David B

it IS cheap and plasticky, that's what makes it such an amazing action.

expensive and non-plasticky is what makes actions bad.

josh_sounds

It's funny how we speak of key action and yet they all have this same weak point…