VSL Fazioli F308 - my struggle

HeartKeys

Hi, earlier this summer I purchased the entire VSL Synchron piano bundle (9 instruments, Full version), and have learned to enjoy each of the pianos... almost.

I'm struggling to enjoy the F308. The upper registries are wildly inconsistent in their velocities (e.g., C6 sounds really weak), and the overall tones sound thin. The irony is that it's recorded in the Synchron Stage A, but seems hollow for some reason.

Anyone else experiencing this? I know this can be subjective. But meanwhile, I haven't had as much issue like this, with the other VSL pianos... even the Fazioli F212 is more enjoyable in my opinion, like it has fewer idiosyncrasies than the F308 to me.

This isn't a thread about whether Fazioli is better or worse than other makers. I'm just wondering about VSL's particular software, for this particular piano (F308).

johanibraaten

HeartKeys The upper registries are wildly inconsistent in their velocities (e.g., C6 sounds really weak)

Do you think it's a velocity mapping issue or does it seem to be a problem with the voicing of the piano? If it's the former VSL hopefully will address the problem with a future update. If it's the latter it's supposedly more problematic.

VSL is second to none when it comes to recording quality but they don't seem to be equally meticulous when it comes to tuning, regulation and voicing of their pianos.

David B

HeartKeys The upper registries are wildly inconsistent in their velocities (e.g., C6 sounds really weak), and the overall tones sound thin.

The F308 was my favorite virtual piano until I started playing the Ivory 3. It's really hard to go back to VSL after Ivory 3 simply because of the beautiful consistency and balance in Ivory 3. All the keys and registers sound perfectly in balance like a well regulated and tuned instrument.

On the other hand, this is what my VSL F308 Edit page looks like.

Notice how jacked up the C6 is. Volume and EQ adjustment to get the C6 sounding somewhat clear. I would agree that the F212 is nice if it wasn't for the dead octave in the lower mid range. I have a lot of respect for VSL. They are constantly improving their products and software. Their libraries sound very authentic and the software allows for the type of adjustments to get what you need. I've owned almost every VSL library and they all require tweaking and adjustments.

Ivory 3 doesn't present with the same level of realism to my ears as VSL, but Ivory 3 plays like butter.

God Bless,
David

CraigNZ

You might be fighting a losing battle. The 308 is the only VSL piano I've regretted buying. I could just never gel with the timbre. Fortunately the others are so good, I'll survive!

pianow

CraigNZ
Agreed, it's the least interesting piano in their lineup (and the most expensive one wtf🥴)

Linear dynamic range, narrow sound stage, bright yet lifeless character, powerless fortissimos and nasal pianissimos.

At first i thought their d274 is bad, but that one can really shine with a good midi controller (probably a decent digital piano) and a well tweaked velocity mapping, it's a bit crunchy at mid velocities but still has plenty of power and colour, of course it's not my n#1 but still way better then the infamous f308

pianow

It's funny when the most expensive piano on the market is vsl f308

I think vsl pianos (in general) are so overpriced already, yk?
No una Corda (samples or simulations)
No sustain/down (or at least a good sustain resonance simulator)
No sympathetic resonance

These features are so common that even 99$ virtual pianos like NI grandeur has them (except the una corda, that seems to be a luxury with sampled pianos)

But it gets even worse when you sample a fazioli that has next to no timber change, the least interesting sound on the market, it's 420GBs and you charge 590 Euros for it, it's just insane

Now I'm not a fazioli hater or smth, i love their 212 and i don't really care about una corda or sus2 features (i think they both can be replaced with some good simulations - which again vsl doesn't offer such features😳)

Btw as i said vsl (pianos at least) are so damn overpaid IMO, even though I'm a fan myself

I hope they'd listen to the users and fix some of these issues, new resonators, some u.c and sus2 simulators and such.

My favourites are :
280vc, cfx, imperial, d-274, f212

David B

pianow it's 420GBs and you charge 590 Euros for it, it's just insane

The VSL F308 (full Library) is only 112GB with their new lossless compression.

I have 6 full VSL libraries that now totals approximately the same size as the F308 before the new conversion format. I love that all my VSL pianos easily fit on my internal SSD.

God Bless,
David

pianow

David B
yup I'm aware of their new lossless compression format, i have them all installed

i was talking about the day it released, and the original price

HeartKeys

thanks for all the insight y'all. i now realize i am absolutely not alone in many of my sentiments! 🙂

Mindbullets

I got the F308 trial and was surprised to find I didn’t care for it, especially compared to the other Synchron pianos. It’s a very pristine sampled piano, just not that exciting to me.

pianow

Mindbullets It’s a very pristine sampled piano

yea, the main problem is the instrument itself, i personally played more colorful f308s in person but the one that Synchron has totally lacks any characteristics, it's just the flattest piano sound I've ever heard, both harmonically and dynamically, the actual piano generates next to no overtones and that makes the sound and the dynamic range quite flat

sometimes it feels like a good addition but for over 600$? not quite sure

HeartKeys

Yeah. I remember watching the below-video, where the VSL pianist/sales guy talks about how wonderful their F308 is. Here we see him playing it directly (vs. the VSL software), so one can get a "real time" perception of the instrument.

It sounded somewhat uninspiring to me. I'm concluding that it's due to the voicing, which sounds quite subdued for a 10 footer (this particular F308). It sounds much more bloomy, in other performances, in other live performances in concert halls, etc. Just not this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOWORJwTas&t=110s

jdg78

I can relate to a lot of the comments in this thread. When I first tried out the VSL Fazioli F308 I absolutely hated it - I felt it sounded flat, thin, and colorless with almost no dynamic range - especially compared to the other Synchron pianos I had at the time (CFX, Steinway and Bosendorfer Imperial).

About a year later, I decided to give it another shot and my impressions were a bit more positive. Yes, it is still quite tonally one-dimensional and not terribly dynamic, but these attributes can work in your favor depending on the type of music you're playing. I happen to play a lot of Bach and other baroque music, and in this context the Fazioli often works quite well. It has exceptional clarity due to the extremely linear and consistent timbre, which can make balancing the various strands in polyphonic music much easier. I have also come come to appreciate the basic timbre a bit more, which I find pleasantly warm and mellow within its limited range. And I think the playability is actually quite good overall, a few dull notes notwithstanding.

Would I use it for Chopin or Rachmaninoff, or choose it as a general use piano? Hell no... But as a specialized (although, very expensive) tool, it can work quite well for certain things.

I feel much differently about the Fazioli F212 though. I've now demoed extensively twice, and disliked it just as much the second time around.

pianow

jdg78
the problem for me is that they've placed their least versatile and competitive piano at the top with their pricing, i can't believe they priced it above the imperial (their finest work to date)

at first i thought they have recorded una corda samples,( and it made sense concerning the lib was 420gb at the time)

John

HeartKeys I own and use 4 synchron VSL pianos. The Fazioli 308 is simply a piano that is not regulated, and has multiple issues as an instrument. I have no doubt that VSL sampled it well, but the actual instrument is terrible. Uneven notes (with same velocities), harsh notes jumping out all over - just a bad piano needing lots of maintenance work. Really too bad.

johanibraaten

John The Fazioli 308 is simply a piano that is not regulated, and has multiple issues as an instrument.

This is something that's very peculiar but true for many of the VSL pianos IMHO. I have yet to try the Faziolis but I have tried all the other Synchron pianos and most of them have tuning or/and voicing issues. I mean the tuning issues on the CFX or the Vienna Imperial is really not good and and there is voicing issues among most of the instruments. VSL is a top premium company that puts a lot of resources in their recording facilities and technique so it looks like an easy task to engage a good tuner/technician (which there should be several in Vienna) with their sampling process so I have a hard time understanding these issues.

porco_rosso

I also just didn't like the VSL Synchron pianos. Some keys are slightly out of tune (but that's not a major problem), the velocity mapping of some keys is off compared to their neighboring keys, and the loudness and timbre change is too easy perceivable in some keys despite so many samples. Also there are no real sympathetic resonance and una cords samples. I feel I hear a recording of myself while playing, not myself actually playing. For the price I think there are just not good enough.

jdg78

pianow the problem for me is that they've placed their least versatile and competitive piano at the top with their pricing, i can't believe they priced it above the imperial (their finest work to date)

at first i thought they have recorded una corda samples,( and it made sense concerning the lib was 420gb at the time)

Yeah, I have no idea what justifies the premium pricing on the Fazioli, or how they determine pricing for any of their models. Perhaps they think that the utterly useless 4th pedal justifies the higher price. In any case, as far as I can tell, pricing seems to be determined by number of mic positions and GB size more than anything else.

Ironically, what I consider to be the very best Synchron piano all-around - the CFX - is also one of the cheapest.

jdg78

johanibraaten This is something that's very peculiar but true for many of the VSL pianos IMHO. I have yet to try the Faziolis but I have tried all the other Synchron pianos and most of them have tuning or/and voicing issues. I mean the tuning issues on the CFX or the Vienna Imperial is really not good and and there is voicing issues among most of the instruments. VSL is a top premium company that puts a lot of resources in their recording facilities and technique so it looks like an easy task to engage a good tuner/technician (which there should be several in Vienna) with their sampling process so I have a hard time understanding these issues.

In my experience, most pianos VSTs have some slight imperfection, whether it be tuning, voicing, evenness, etc. I can't say I've found VSL instruments to be any better or worse overall in this regard, although some have more noticeable issues than others (Vienna Imperial and Fazioli F212 are the worst, IMO).

What I do appreciate, however, is the extensive editing capabilities of the Synchron piano engine, which allows for per-key adjustments to volume level, EQ, release level etc., which means you can largely edit away these discrepancies and customize the response to a degree that is not possible with most other piano software, with the exception of Pianoteq. I've made per-key adjustments to almost all of the VSL pianos I own and it really helps even things out.

Ironically, the sampled piano that comes closest to pristine perfection may be the Garritan CFX, but I actually find that the almost supernatural cleanness of it makes it feel a bit characterless and bland in comparison with my favorites.

So maybe a little imperfection is a good thing. 😀

johanibraaten

jdg78 So maybe a little imperfection is a good thing. 😀

Sometimes I wonder if that actually is VSL:s philosophy. Perhaps It provides authenticity in an orchestral score with some artifacts to "mask" that it's a digital piano. However, for playing and practicing I would't mind some less artifacts. But don't get me wrong, despite its annoying shortcomings I still love the VSL CFX and it remains my default piano. And regarding authencity I'm yet to encounter a digital piano that feels more "real" than the combination of my N1 and the VSL CFX paired with a decent pair of headphones.

jdg78 Ironically, the sampled piano that comes closest to pristine perfection may be the Garritan CFX

I've never tried the Garritan CFX but maybe I should just get it, if nothing else to participate in discussions about it as it seems to be immensely popular. It's just that it doesn't seem to provide any way to try it out before buying...