New Pianoteq Model - Bösendorfer Concert Grand 280VC

NNiami

Hi,

Just wanted to let everyone know that there is a new Pianoteq model available soon.

Hopefully this will be the one to finally tip the scale towards modelled pianos over samples.

More details:

Authorized by Bösendorfer, the Concert Grand 280VC physical model faithfully captures the rich resonance and dynamic spectrum of the instrument, making it a true joy to play and bringing many hours of listening pleasure. It’s easy to understand why: breathtaking dynamics, astounding colours, exhilarating brilliance, a sound as clear as diamonds, yet playfully gleaming like beaming sparkles of light. Franz Liszt, Arthur Rubinstein, Victor Borge, Leonard Bernstein, Oscar Peterson, Vangelis, Tori Amos, Gonzalo Rubalcaba, Daniil Trifonov, and many more, have been using Bösendorfer pianos in their careers, leading to many prominent recordings."

Finally, I believe the new pianos in Logic Pro 11 - called Studio Pianos are also Bosendorfers. More specifically the 230VC (studio grand) and 280VC (concert grand) - truly a great time to be Bosendorfer players. These are sampled pianos with a very small memory footprint.

CyberGene

NNiami Finally, I believe the new pianos in Logic Pro 11 - called Studio Pianos are also Bosendorfers. More specifically the 230VC (studio grand) and 280VC (concert grand) - truly a great time to be Bosendorfer players. These are sampled pianos with a very small memory footprint.

I recently downloaded the Logic Pro update and was excited about the news of new piano samples because the existing one was awful. The new pianos are a great improvement, however they don’t support re-pedaling, half-pedaling, resonances. And there were some bugs like wrong decays, etc. I believe those will be good for general music production but not for any serious piano work. Not sure if they are really Bösendorfers, where did you read that?

And count me skeptical about the new Pianoteq model 🙂

ambrozy

Yeah bosendorfer bell like treble, especially with default unison width = 1 lol

NNiami

CyberGene

Hi,

The Logic Pro 11 Studio Pianos sound like Bosendorfers to me - there is a EXS folder called Bosendorfer Piano in the library folder. I could be wrong though, as in their official manual they do not specify what brand of piano it is.
Yes I agree, the sympathetic resonance is not working in Studio Pianos, which is why you need Pianoteq. But most sample libraries cannot do sympathetic resonance properly.
I am confident that Pianoteq should be able to nail the 280VC - I've heard the real thing and it is a very clear and pristine sounding piano, something Pianoteq is very good at emulating. Also they have made some significant strides and improvements in their recent updates (v8.2), the Petrov model actually rivals the best sampled libraries.
I'd like to add that the Pianoteq Steinway sounds awful to me: harsh and metallic. Being the default patch, I think this is why Pianoteq has a mixed reputation.
It seems like the Logic Pro 11 Studio Pianos may be a work in progress, as the concert piano is missing two mic positions, maybe it was rushed on release?

Pete14

Interesting:

Modartt models BallsandDorfer…

Yamaha owns BallsandDorfer…

Yamaha soon to buy Modartt…

Keep tuned for official announcement: “we proudly announce that Modartt (Pianoteq) is now part of the Yamaha family!”

CyberGene

Pete14 Yamaha soon to buy Modartt…

That would actually be a pretty good news. Yamaha knows how to make pianos and digital pianos, but what is more, they know how to make a digital piano feel and sound good, so hopefully they can fine-tune Pianoteq at the internal raw-model level. Although I have no high hopes that modeling can be made to sound as convincing as a sampled-based piano, it can at least be improved as much as possible within the limits.

Pete14

CyberGene Although I have no high hopes that modeling can be made to sound as convincing as a sampled-based piano, it can at least be improved as much as possible within the limits.

I humbly believe that the writing is on the wall, and it will indeed be AI powered by quantum computing that takes modeling to the next level….

Also, it has been said, that Pianoteq could be much better if only Modartt stopped pandering to their cheapest customers, whom, I’ve heard, can’t part with their old machines (running on coal), and upgrade to a new Mac boasting at least an M1….

One solution proposed is that Modartt implement a slider of sorts; whence the user could determine the level of realism based on their computer’s capabilities, so, in essence, if you own an M4 Mac, Pianoteq will be rendered to its full potential; however, if you’re still using your grandma’s computer, well, you know what I mean…..

But yes, I’d like to see a Yamaha hybrid powered by Pianoteq!😁

Pete14

Take that, VSL!

https://youtu.be/DK4dh_d8Ywo?si=6wDXMu2jOniwckAu

CyberGene

Did they use the VSL samples for that model? How are these models exactly working? Did Bösendorfer give the exact schematics of one of their pianos to Modartt? I’m really lost what modeling exactly means already.

QuasiUnaFantasia

CyberGene Their model has a number of visible parameters, representing physical aspects of piano's. These can be tuned by the user. Possibly (and hopefully) their model also includes a number of invisible parameters, equally representing physical aspects of piano's, which Modartt can tune but users cannot.

I expect the launch of a new model means that Modartt have tuned the invisible parameters in such a way that the sound produced imitates the sound recorded from a physical instrument, in this case a Bösendorfer 280VC. If they used a sampled instrument to represent the "physical" instrument, they should acknowledge that (they did exactly that with their Bechstein). Otherwise, they should have done their own sampling of the physical instrument. (Without sampling they would not have a fair chance to imitate the original sound well, because they would have to resort to using their ears, and that would be forbiddingly slow).

vagfilm

All hope is lost… From the demos alone this new pianoteq model sounds as pianoteqish as it gets. Far worse than the Petrofs.

Just out of curiosity, I asked my wife to listen to 2 snippets of pianoteq VC280 demos and 2 of the VSL VC280 demos, and asked which one was more artificial. She nailed 2 in 2, and she cannot stand any piano, so no expertise here.

SouthPark

One acoustic 280VC owner/piano player appears to be impressed with this Pteq 'version' of the '280VC' after listening to the demos.

LINK

The tech is just going to get better, even though it is already awesome right now. More pie anyone? Of the humble variety. We can do this two ways … we serve it to you and you eat it the usual way. Or right into your face. Those two exclusive only options.

CyberGene

vagfilm Just out of curiosity, I asked my wife to listen to 2 snippets of pianoteq VC280 demos and 2 of the VSL VC280 demos, and asked which one was more artificial. She nailed 2 in 2, and she cannot stand any piano, so no expertise here.

This is deserving a separate discussion but on an audiophile forum there was this universally accepted position that women have better hearing than men 🙂 They are not audiophiles because they are not as obsessed with gadgets and equipment but I tend to agree they have excellent hearing for audio related things.

vagfilm

Well, this was not a proper testing in any way, shape or form. I found that PTQ announced the 280VC, and immediately grabbed my phone to listen to the demos (not even on headphones) because for some reason I convinced myself that "this is the one; this will make me buy PTQ". I was so disappointed with the demos, that I turn to my wife and told her that one was a true piano recording (in fact it was one VSL demo) and the other a recording of a digital piano. She identified PTQ demos as the digital piano in both my tests.

Mindbullets

SouthPark One acoustic 280VC owner/piano player appears to be impressed with this Pteq 'version' of the '280VC' after listening to the demos.

Yeah, that was pretty interesting to read. I've never played a real 280 VC myself, so I have no basis for comparison, but they've made some real progress in the bass modeling IMO. I still hear Pianoteq (which I'm fine with, given how responsive it is), and agree it's particularly prominent in the middle registers. The condition slider seems touchier than I've noticed in the past, at least with this model. I need to spend a bit more time dialing in presets to see what I can get out of it.

Pete14 One solution proposed is that Modartt implement a slider of sorts; whence the user could determine the level of realism based on their computer’s capabilities

Yeah!

CyberGene

I just listened to the demos through my headphones. Yep, that’s one of the worse Pianoteq models, way too nasal and synthetic.

CyberGene

P.S. I just listened to the VSL demos too and frankly speaking, it sounds nasal and metallic too. They are pretty similar. I’m wondering if it speaks high for Pianoteq, or low for VSL, or both. Or maybe the actual Bösendorfer is like that. Not my piano, either of them, Pianoteq or VSL🤮

QuasiUnaFantasia

CyberGene The 280VC (or any VC model actually) is not my cup of tea; and I tend to like Bösendorfer's.

SouthPark

I like the sound of it, and I have good 'ears' … and just like you guys and/or gals, I'm good at music and piano playing too. It gets thumbs up from me. So looks like it's even. Statistics as usual.

pipAT

I still see quite different opinions toward this pack from VI-control, Pianoworld, Pianoteq forum and here. To my ear, Pianoteq has made an inch progress. The unnatural thing we usually talk is immediately recognized. But after all, Pianoteq is moving on, and it doesn't harness the full power of CPU or GPU. So maybe Modartt could make more sophisticated models that require more computing abilities, and sound more natural.