What happened with Jay Kominek’s project? He was at the finish line and had one note wired and detecting hits (although in the video it seemed with a lag but could be due to audio not synced with video). And then he stopped posting updates. I hope he is well and healthy.
I believe he's busy.
On PW: Last Seen Tue Jun 22 2021 10:37 AM, we exchanged a few updates around that time. In July I've been off-grid, in August he did not respond to my message and I did not push for it. In September I've been too busy to contact him and in October I want to finish a few things before bothering him again.
On github (different project, not piano-conversion) he pushed some code changes two days ago, so he must be at least ok.
Don't you worry about the piano action getting dirty if it has no case? I think that an open action could get problems after some time, right?
How expensive was the action?
According to what criteria was it purchased?
(If all this has already been described in the extensive documentation, please bear with me on my questions.)
And basically, of course, my utmost respect regarding the successful completion of the project.
Really cool! 😃👍👍👍
MBiG Don't you worry about the piano action getting dirty if it has no case? I think that an open action could get problems after some time, right?
Indeed, but the funny thing is it still worked although covered in dust! It's currently stocked at another apartment and covered with cloth. If I take it back, I'll think of a case.
MBiG How expensive was the action?
It costed me €1100, a 100-something year old 85-key action 🙂 It was in good condition according to the technician who gave it to me but I had to do some repairs (I changed all the white key covers and also created my own wooden support beams to level the action brackets, because apparently some technician had made some reworking on the action in the past and that repair was already "for repair" itself). But take in mind grand pianos are not very popular in Bulgaria. We have always been a rather poor country, lost two world-wars and I guess not many people could afford spending for a grand piano. Those are mostly imported grand pianos from Germany which are in bad condition and mostly used for only their casing, they remove the action and throw it away and just put a digital piano inside and use those in night clubs and bars... 🤦🏻♂️I think the action could have been free but since I looked for one, they probably saw a good chance to charge me.
MBiG According to what criteria was it purchased?
I only asked for a grand piano action. It turned out there are the so called Viennese actions that lack double-escapement and those are more easily found because they are considered cr*p and so the pianos are more easily found dirt cheap (and since the action will be discarded...). I wanted the other, so called English action, but there weren't any available. However after a month I received a call for an English action, hence with double escapement. Didn't have any choice or chance to test. So, I said yes and hoped it would be at least semi-decent. BTW, it was only after it was delivered that I realized there's such a thing as 85-key pianos... I wasn't happy but that's life. At least music written before the end of the 19th century isn't using the three topmost keys 🤣
A fun fact is my schematics and PCB design was made for a 85-key piano, since there are 17 modules, each scanning 5 notes = 85 keys 😉 Of course it's flexible and you can add/remove modules. If you use it on a 88-key piano, then you add an 18th module board and you will end up with 2 unused slots. Which BTW can be used to serve e.g. a soft and sostenuto pedals, so it's not totally useless 😉
CyberGene Indeed, but the funny thing is it still worked although covered in dust! It's currently stocked at another apartment and covered with cloth. If I take it back, I'll think of a case.
Yes, very interesting indeed. I must admit that I am also very interested in classical piano mechanics. There are a lot of videos on youtube on the subject, including restorations. It's amazing how dirty some action systems are and yet still work, but of course only with restrictions.
CyberGene It costed me €1100, a 100-something year old 85-key action 🙂 It was in good condition according to the technician who gave it to me but I had to do some repairs (I changed all the white key covers and also created my own wooden support beams to level the action brackets, because apparently some technician had made some reworking on the action in the past and that repair was already "for repair" itself).
Frankly, I have no idea how expensive piano actions are, a consumer market doesn't really exist. I think it's great that you were able to repair/adjust the action yourself.
CyberGene But take in mind grand pianos are not very popular in Bulgaria. We have always been a rather poor country, lost two world-wars and I guess not many people could afford spending for a grand piano. Those are mostly imported grand pianos from Germany which are in bad condition and mostly used for only their casing, they remove the action and throw it away and just put a digital piano inside and use those in night clubs and bars... 🤦🏻♂️I think the action could have been free but since I looked for one, they probably saw a good chance to charge me.
Yes that's a shame, so to charge a lot of money for something that might be much cheaper to get. I didn't know that the cases with digtal elements are used for a "second life" until now.
CyberGene I only asked for a grand piano action. It turned out there are the so called Viennese actions that lack double-escapement and those are more easily found because they are considered cr*p and so the pianos are more easily found dirt cheap (and since the action will be discarded...). I wanted the other, so called English action, but there weren't any available. However after a month I received a call for an English action, hence with double escapement. Didn't have any choice or chance to test. So, I said yes and hoped it would be at least semi-decent. BTW, it was only after it was delivered that I realized there's such a thing as 85-key pianos... I wasn't happy but that's life. At least music written before the end of the 19th century isn't using the three topmost keys
As I said, I don't know the end user market. That's why I didn't know that the Viennese piano action were considered junk. I always thought that these piano action were seen more in the sense of historical. And therefore actually still have a certain value.
Just for interest, I did a quick search on Ebay.de for used piano mechanics and didn't find anything interesting, but for example, this instrument could be bought complete for 700€. There is no description of how good the piano action is. I also don't know if this Blüthner has a Viennese piano action. But it has 88 keys. The transport to Bulgaria certainly makes the instrument financially uninteresting, but if you know someone here in Germany who could buy the instrument and send the piano action alone to you, an alternative with 88 keys would be possible.
If the 3 keys are important to you, a nice occasion for the next "project V2" (oh that is not exactly politically correct, historically speaking). 🤣
MBiG Yes that's a shame, so to charge a lot of money for something that might be much cheaper to get. I didn't know that the cases with digtal elements are used for a "second life" until now.
CORRECTION:
Yes, that's a shame to charge so much money for something that could be had much cheaper. I didn't know that there are old housings with digtal elements that are used in Bulgaria for a "second life". 🤣
MBiG I also don't know if this Blüthner has a Viennese piano action.
It may not have the Viennese action (I thought only Bösendorfer used those), but it will probably have the Blüthner patent action. There are a lot of Youtube videos from Roberts Pianos illustrating this very special mechanism.
QuasiUnaFantasia it will probably have the Blüthner patent action. There are a lot of Youtube videos from Roberts Pianos illustrating this very special mechanism
You beat me to it. Indeed, there are many variations of grand piano action but this specific one used by Blüthner in their pianos before 1920 AFAIK is very different and a bit difficult to service. I still think I could have installed my optical sensors in that piano though.
Anyway, at the time I didn't know much about piano actions and all their variants. From a certain viewpoint I had luck with my action because it's very easy to regulate (just for instance the double-repetition lever spring is adjusted through a screw from above and even on some modern actions you need to take out the spring and flex it by hand which seems ludicrous to me to do for all the 88 keys).
If I start again now, I have gathered a lot of knowledge about every single detail of grand piano actions, what it is for and how to regulate it and would certainly choose and purchase the action myself.
CyberGene Anyway, at the time I didn't know much about piano actions and all their variants. From a certain viewpoint I had luck with my action because it's very easy to regulate (just for instance the double-repetition lever spring is adjusted through a screw from above and even on some modern actions you need to take out the spring and flex it by hand which seems ludicrous to me to do for all the 88 keys).
Yeah, I always thought that seemed crazy too. That's how the repetition lever spring is on our N1X's. How would you even get it consistent across the keys by taking it out and flexing it for adjustment?
God Bless,
David
Ahh, yes, you are right, that's also how the Yamaha actions are, I also think the Steinway actions. I really don't know what they were thinking. With a screw you can go one by one quickly. Without you have to use some hooks to detach the spring, flex it somehow on the side of the whippen which is tricky. Sounds like pain in the ass but I may be missing something.
CyberGene Sounds like pain in the ass but I may be missing something.
I remember feeling the way when I saw someone do it on a YouTube video.
CyberGene With a screw you can go one by one quickly.
But your screw adjust a spring, correct? So, it may happen that from time to time you still have to adjust the spring, and then fine tune with the screw, correct? So, german non renner actions are the easiest to regulate while being the most "agile"?
I am not an expert and have had experience with only one action so far 🤣 But what's interesting is on the Cybrid action that screw changes the spring tension even with a very small turn and the screw seemed to have many turns possible, and so I could regulate all springs without the need to also manually change the spring tension, although I also thought like you that this has its limit until you have to regulate the spring itself.
There may be other considerations here too and I'm far from saying that some 100-year old action is better than a Renner or Yamaha action 😀 But I simply can't understand why they would remove the screw unless for cost savings. In a Renner? 😉
Nothing like hands-on experience… sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. Thanks…
MBiG Frankly, I have no idea how expensive piano actions are, a consumer market doesn't really exist. I think it's great that you were able to repair/adjust the action yourself.
Of course it does not exist. Why would a consumer buy an action?
In any case, I did some research and I found that if you get it built on purpose in the "first world", you'd be paying easily $10k or more. Oddly enough (I was shocked to learn that), most of that cost is for the keys and keyboard frame, rather than the other more complicated parts which are relatively less expensive (because they are mass produced, unlike the keys that need to be custom made). If you can get access to the lowest tier of Chinese manufacturers (who often don't even speak English [1]), you can get one for 2k and perhaps even less (putting the dollar sign makes the PC go crazy [2]) -- after all there are some completed grand pianos which can be bought for less than 10k (ditto for the dollar sign), complete of everything from transportation to store profits…
On the used market, obviously is all over the place and it depends on the local conditions. For example, in some parts of the USA there is a huge availability of grand pianos because people need to vacate their houses for selling them, and as such the grand pianos become "peanuts" in the economics of the sellers but huge logistical nuisances to get rid of fast: hence they can be gotten cheaper than they are really "worth" (if you can define a "worth" outside of a market, which obviously you can't). None of these will sell the action itself, you have to take away the whole instrument (but then again, in the USA is also easy/cheap to get rid of the parts you don't need -- harder and more expensive in the parts of Europe I lived in)
[1]: but perhaps @Ampersand 's wife or @Picotin or @dore_m could help -- PM me if you want one referral of a Chinese speaking manufacturer which is well regarded but can't speak any other language than Chinese
[2]: @CyberGene can you please disable that thing that if there are two dollar signs in a post it gets interpreted as something else????
I think I see what the $ issue is. It happens when the rich-text editor is enabled - the fountain pen button. It seems that it would somehow assume that the text between two such dollar signs is some code, however after actual posting it is OK.
I went and checked the settings of the rich-text editor but couldn't find anything. However you should take in mind this extension is unfortunately experimental and still in beta. It allows you to immediately see your formatting in the text area instead of having to look at the preview window above. I think this may be a bug and I will ask on the extension discussion page. For now you should either live with that or switch rich-text editor while writing posts.
RIP Of course it does not exist. Why would a consumer buy an action?
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here again, which I have triggered. 😀
I myself do not want to buy a piano action. I am only interested in the history / technology of course only in the context of this hobby. (for me this is also only a hobby).
going OT (thinking about the bann hammer):
...... I meant with end customer market for piano mechanics, a market like there is this for example also for used construction machines, laptops, car parts etc. pp. With used car parts you could also ask why there should be an end customer market when everyone just drives their car and there are more than enough dealers with workshops where a car can be repaired. But anyway, I hope that I could now make clear what I meant and why I thought that there should also be a, albeit small, end customer market for these piano mechanisms.
OT off: over and out 😃
MBiG meant with end customer market for piano mechanics, a market like there is this for example also for used construction machines, laptops, car parts etc. pp.
Ah I see. And it's not OT at all, is right on topic!!! I had the same journey when making my decisions about the way to find my own action (which eventually I got by salvaging it from a grand piano with broken frame, from which I took also parts of the cabinet)
Well, in such a case there is a market for that, but it's for parts that break or that one would like to replace for improvements. To continue the comparison for the car, there is a market for wheels, tires and to a smaller degree replacement glasses and engine parts. But there is no market for a whole frame preassembled with seats and wheels but without the engine, do you see what I mean?
So in the piano, you do have a market for individual action parts (and actually a pretty thriving one), but not so much for action rails or for individual keys because:
for the same reason there is no market for a whole-replacement-action, because there is no reason to replace everything -- well, with one exception, the WNG top stack which technicians (not end customers) can buy at https://technicians.wessellnickelandgross.com/action-parts/hammer-action/grand-assembled-top-action.html
But note as even that does not include keyframe and keys, because changing that is not an improvement, whereas switching from wood to carbon fiber everywhere else arguably is (that discussion is OT and could be a separate thread). I actually considered buying that action myself, but the cost of keyframe and keys was prohibitive (I asked estimate to about 10 different companies/technicians and all gave similar price range and similar explanations at my balking)
I see what you mean. Thank you for your detailed explanation. 👍🎹
CyberGene For now you should either live with that or switch rich-text editor while writing posts.
Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. I will just switch to using USD 🙂.
Osho
